An Astonishing Message from a Gay Sister in Christ

(You must make it to the third paragraph in order to understand.)

To the churches concerning homosexuals and lesbians:

Many of you believe that we do not exist within your walls, your schools, your neighborhoods. You believe that we are few and easily recognized. I tell you we are many. We are your teachers, doctors, accountants, high school athletes. We are all colors, shapes, sizes. We are single, married, mothers, fathers. We are your sons, your daughters, your nieces, your nephews, your grandchildren. We are in your Sunday School classes, pews, choirs, and pulpits. You choose not to see us out of ignorance or because it might upset your congregation. We ARE your congregation. We enter your doors weekly seeking guidance and some glimmer of hope that we can change. Like you, we have invited Jesus into our hearts. Like you, we want to be all that Christ wants us to be. Like you, we pray daily for guidance. Like you, we often fail.

When the word “homosexual” is mentioned in the church, we hold our breaths and sit in fear. Most often this word is followed with condemnation, laughter, hatred, or jokes. Rarely do we hear any words of hope. At least we recognize our sin. Does the church as a whole see theirs? Do you see the sin of pride, that you are better than or more acceptable to Jesus than we are? Have you been Christ-like in your relationships with us? Would you meet us at the well, or restaurant, for a cup of water, or coffee? Would you touch us even if we showed signs of leprosy, or aids? Would you call us down from our trees, as Christ did Zacchaeus, and invite yourself to be our guest? Would you allow us to sit at your table and break bread? Can you love us unconditionally and support us as Christ works in our lives, as He works in yours, to help us all to overcome?

To those of you who would change the church to accept the gay community and its lifestyle: you give us no hope at all. To those of us who know God’s word and will not dilute it to fit our desires, we ask you to read John’s letter to the church in Pergamum. “I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore!” You are willing to compromise the word of God to be politically correct. We are not deceived. If we accept your willingness to compromise, then we must also compromise. We must therefore accept your lying, your adultery, your lust, your idolatry, your addictions, YOUR sins. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

We do not ask for your acceptance of our sins any more than we accept yours. We simply ask for the same support, love, guidance, and most of all hope that is given to the rest of your congregation. We are your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not what we shall be, but thank God, we are not what we were. Let us work together to see that we all arrive safely home.

A Sister in Christ

UPDATE:  I have closed comments on this post.  But for those of you who posted comments in what I believe to be the wrong spirit, I commend you to consider whether you are in danger of stoning the woman caught in adultery.  Would Jesus be writing your name and your deeds in the dust while you stood with rocks in your hands?

223 thoughts on “An Astonishing Message from a Gay Sister in Christ

  1. Well written Sister, if only all gays understood the teachings of the Lord. Even Mary M. who was a sinner, was forgiven, but people forget the rest of that Scripture, that she Glorified God from that point of her life! A truely repentent person refrains from doing the same sin over and over again! We as humans have to forgive sin over and over, but the Lord does not! People don’t fear God, they think anything they do will be forgiven. Tell the people of Sodom ! He is a God of Love, but only if you obey his commandments. The pressure that is put upon our government and the churches pretaining to gay marriage, has the Lord weeping! Is it a sign that we are approaching the last days? I guess it is time to get our house in order!

    Fearfull of HIs Wrath!

    • You may enjoy studying unforgivable sin a little closer, to start see (Mark 3:28-29). Jesus is our Grace, and He bore ALL of our sins, past, present, and future on the cross. He does want us to repent from our sins, but he also knows that this is a gradual process and will never end on this earth. Imagine if God came down and said if you don’t follow my commandments you will go to hell. Oh wait, he already did that to show us that we could NEVER fulfill them. Thus His original plan, which was Christ, has set us free from sin and death if we only believe with our hearts that He is the Son of God. It never said we would not sin again. Praise God for his abundant grace. Even one of the greatest Christian ever, Paul, proclaimed AFTER accepting Christ in 1 Tim 1:15b “… that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

      As for this article, I pray blessing will bestow the author for wearing her heart on her sleeve. I cannot look upon someone else’s sin as greater than mine. Mine sin is ever before me, each time I look in the mirror I know I am not what I should be. The pornography, the lust of my flesh, the lust of my eyes, and the pride of life I struggle against daily, only shows me that like Paul, I am the chief of sinners.

      As a member of the Body of Christ, I too must stand against our churches allowing our society to water down our Christianity.

      • I will pray for your deliverance from this sin, and for me, I pray for Him to be the judge and not me–He is far better at than me. Second, I pray I would not let any barriers of pride, superiority, smugness come between me and other sinners. you have probably read or seen “The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert” and its substantial genuine testimony of a femininst lesbian college professor converted to Jesus Christ in 1999-2000 and her struggles before and since conversion.

      • Read a little before verse 15 and you will see that Paul was talking about his past sin of hurting the Christians, not living in open sins as a believer

      • I hope you are not trying to justify “secret sin” with “open sin”. If you are hiding in your home office watching pornagraphy do you think God doesn’t see? “For He knows false men, And He sees iniquity without investigating. (Job 11:11 NASB)”

        Have you been sinless since being saved? Was Paul? Notice that Paul writes this passage in the present tense, not in the past tense, indicating that he first sees the sin in his own life as the greatest. The sin he identifies with that Christ suffered for on the cross in the first place, not just the sin of his past.

      • A. Garrison!! Thank you for the your words. They articulate the real gospel, how we cannot and never will but Jesus did overcome the world and all its temptations and now we can REST in his finished work. Accepted, redeemed, adopted, sealed despite my unworthiness.

    • I don’t usually respond, but to say that only shows me that you don’t truly uderstand grave. Let me ask you, do you lie? You know its wrong but do you continue to do it. If you are honest with yourself you know you do. So what makes that a better sin. John8:7 Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone.

      • Seriously? There are many people that do not lie, even unsaved people. It sound like you have a serious problem with telling the truth and just assume that everyone lies since you do. We certainly all sin but that does not mean that we are all dishonest. If we have presumptuous sin in our lives and excuse it then the seed of God is not in us. In other words we have yet to come into Life.

      • Andrea, You have shown me something that I have wanted to understand, seen glimpses of, and yet let my traditions and judgmental training obscure, and that is truth. Truth (Jesus Christ) never changes. His love and blood was poured out on a sinful world and I believe you see that. Sin is sin no matter what you call it. As a person involved with recovery groups ( a group of people that I admire more than I can express) I had to admit my own sins (missing the dead center of the target), step out of denial, and admit that I could not make the changes that I wanted to see in my own life on my own. Everyone of those people that Jesus died for are no different than you or I. I just needed a safe place to go,where I felt comfortable enough to share and to get free. I choose not to be a prisoner any longer.
        A grateful believer in Jesus Christ

    • God’s love for us for is unconditional, and not contingent upon our life choices. The same way our salvation is not contingent upon our works. God loved you BEFORE you ever started obeying any of his commandments.God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.No, God doesn’t have to forgive us but He does. Over and over again. Because we’re covered by the blood His Son. Jesus died on the cross and paid for all of our sin. Past, present and future. It is cast as far as the east is from the west. . Even in our weaknesses, God’s mercy and grace are sufficient.

      Paul talks about this: God has given us abundant grace and mercy, so should we sin more so that grace may abound? Certainly not! Having given our hearts to Jesus and reconciled with God, we don’t want to do anything that would displease our Dad. And God knows our hearts and is not mocked. Whatever a man reaps he shall also sow. We need to respect Him. He is our one true authority figure and His wrath is nothing to play around with. So I do agree that a person who is repentant should try and refrain from repeating the same sin over and over BUT we cannot rely on our own strength to do it.Nor shall we feel condemned if we find ourselves struggling with the same sin. We can come boldly to His throne of grace because we’ve been sealed by the Holy Spirit. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

      The spirit can be willing but the flesh weak. A person can love the Lord and be in bondage, feeling hopeless to stop thinking, feeling or behaving in a certain way. True deliverance comes from repentance and then submitting to the Lord. He is a restorer and redeemer. He is faithful to break chains and bondage and strongholds. He is faithful to change our hearts and minds if we ask Him and do not doubt Him. Then we see the fruit of His goodness with the change in our hearts and the behavior follows.

    • yes, good sayings, Amen, our Lord has weeping over the sinners trying to cover with coated sugar and excuses for the committing sins and refuse to repent and reluctant to get out there at this moment and would rather linger in it and try to dilute it with an excuses of everybody has sins in certain way so it is ok because we all sin so don’t even judge me that sort of thing, I surprised not seeing many proponents use John defend it.” the astonishing message from a gay sister” is subtle and pervasive. trying to magnify God’s love merely without seeing God’s holiness and His wrath on sins. the truth needs to show whole truth not just.point out one attribute of God and ignore other attributes of Him., Good sayings.

    • The center of our worldview and the intrepretation of our world is to be Scripture centered.
      Your life view, personal life experience, or opinion is not the criteria for this interpretation.
      God is very clear with His intent!
      God has created man and woman for each other.
      There is no debate.

  2. Let me add, Bhulse, that this sister in Christ is still in the lifestyle and still struggling. What is so impressive about her is that she continues to battle and counts on the church to maintain its stance so that she and others might be encouraged by its witness. Her situation is the situation that all of us are in. Every one of us has our battle. We are all in sin. We must continue to look to Christ.

    • I don’t believe a lesbian wrote this. Not only is she unidentified, I don’t think any lesbian would feel that way to write that last paragraph.
      I DO believe your church has some vested interest in “keeping” homosexuality as a sin.
      Both verses regarding homosexuality, Corinthians 1 6:9 & Timothy 1 1:10, were written by Paul, not said by Jesus, and therefore cannot be definitively claimed as the word of God.
      Anyone saying a woman’s brain cannot be in the body of a man, or vice-versa, is attempting to limit God’s creation.
      If you think homosexuals have a choice, then I ask you to substitute the words “Essential Tremorer”, Parkinsonian, Altzheimers, or various other brain disorders brought on through ZERO fault of the sufferer, for every instance that “homosexual” is used, and then ask yourself from that viewpoint, DO they really have a choice?

      • Yes1fan: Its disturbing to me that you equate homosexuality with a brain disorder or medical disease. I think that is more degrading than calling it a sin. If you want to substitute homosexuality in a sentence I would suggest you try words like kleptomaniac, or slanderer, or lovers of money, or adulterer. These may be sinful tendencies, but still require the forgiveness offered by Christ to be accepted into the eternal kingdom of God in Heaven.

      • Instead of equating homosexuality with mental disorders, medical diseases, theft, slander, greed, and adultery, I have a much better idea:

        Let’s equate homosexuality with … heterosexuality!

        I know that would make the homosexuals happy. For some reason that still isn’t clear to me, many heterosexuals would be distraught, alarmed, fearful for the end of Civilization As We Know It. Many of them would get divorces or decide not to have children. And some would sink into a deep despair. But sooner or later they would realize that everything was okay, that the world was not ending, and that they could return calmly to their lives. And millions of homosexuals would be freed of guilt, self-loathing, depression, and suicidal tendencies over an invidious difference that really doesn’t matter at all. And everybody would finally realize that it was all just a long nightmare of scapegoating and persecution, nowhere more evident than on “Conjugality.” The Internet does not forget.

        For all those good things to happen, the spell of Scripture might have to be broken. And the authority of ancient custom, tribal values (such as competitive breeding), and religious authority would have to be loosened. These changes have already happened, but we’ll see more of them, at an accelerating rate.

        Andrew Sullivan wrote yesterday in The Daily Dish that there is a “looming gay crisis in the GOP.” By this, he means that the GOP is refusing to navigate successfully around this issue and may soon crash upon the rocks over it. The same might be said of the Catholic Church, considering the way things have gone for so many years. You and all those who continue to see homosexuality as a stumbling block will in the end stumble on it, big time.

        What may turn things around for you is the new Pope. In Argentina, he actually supported civil unions for gays and lesbians and had cordial interviews with gay-rights leaders. Have you come that far, even? You might be surprised at how fast things turn around if and when your pope quietly sends word down through the ranks that anti-gay rhetoric is no longer to be tolerated. It will be like Benedict’s acknowledging that anthropogenic climate change was a serious problem that had to be addressed. Suddenly, Catholic denialist just shut up about it.

        This suggests to me that the days of gay-bashing on “Conjugality” and “Crisis,” and other Catholic online periodicals are numbered. And good riddance to them!

        In the meantime, I hope you will all stop tormenting this unfortunate lesbian! She is unfortunate not because she is lesbian but because she has had the spectacular misfortune of being a Catholic.

        Here is Andrew Sullivan’s article:

      • Substitute the word adultery or fornication. The problem is lust! It is not a disease, it is a desire. A desire run amok, not controlled, “enjoyed” to excess or beyond God’s limits, therefore sin! Sex is a God given desire designed to fulfill His command to be fruitful and multiply. This can only happen as God designed, in heterosexual union. Man has again perverted God’s good plan into sinful living. God gave me, a man, an abundance of testosterone, does this justify my desire to have sex with multiple women? Does this justify my desire to have sex with women other than my wife? No! Do I struggle with this? Yes, but so far God’s grace and an understanding of His Word, that it is sin, has kept me from that sin. There is no difference in God’s eyes in a heterosexual man having a sexual relationship with a woman before marriage and a homosexual man having a sexual relationship with another man. The fact that God designed marriage for one man and one woman creates a problem for the homosexual in denying a sexual partner but it does not alter the fact that sex outside of marriage is a sin. A sin that can be forgiven and a sin that with God’s help can be controlled. The government’s legalizing it does not change it.

      • I would say yes they do have a choice to continue in the sin or not. It is lack of self control and not being truely converted to think one does not have a choice. It is a lie that Satan has told a “homosexual” that they don’t. God clearly states it as a sin when he took out Sodom and Gemora. He gave them a chance to repent and turn away from the sin and they CHOSE not to. So to say that someone does not have a choice as to what they do with their body is to say that someone hurting someone doesnt have a choice. I do struggle with lusts of the flesh myself (wanting to look at the same sex), but I know it is wrong and choose to turn. Yes I realize I still has sinful desires and repent of them regularly but I choose not to act on the desire.

      • Kyle, while I sympathize with your views, you’re only solidifying the promotion of same sex marriage as the “evil” alternative in their minds. You might check out my blog ( for a Christian view on why we should promote same sex marriage. Though you’re not Christian (presumably), it may help you to learn the vocabulary necessary to speak to Christians in a way that encourages healthy dialog.

      • For many people, this issue is very emotional, and many have disordered their emotions which would otherwise be right. In Kyle’s case, unless I’m mistaken (I didn’t read much of what he said), he supports gay marriage. What he’s doing is not okay, but I understand how quickly this very sensitive topic can grow out of control, especially for those on the side that have been persecuted.

      • Kyle, you are nothing but an abuser and a coward. Take off your mask and let us see who you are.

      • Good job, Kyle. You actually succeeded in posting an appropriate comment. I had to delete most of your others due to profanity and abusive language.

      • It’s unfortunate that people are more offended by profanity than by Movements of people wanting to stop others from being happy and accepted.

      • You falsely assume that all of us are offended by your profanity. On the contrary, your comments are not offensive because you make them too easy to disregarded. Rather, they demonstrate you to be someone who wants to push buttons (even if ineffectively), rather than someone who believes in a nobly intended cause. Read the other commenters that agree with your legal position, notice even they would rather silence such banal banter, and emulate their attitude of constructive discourse. We would then be glad to engage and respond to your comments.

        Looking forward to intelligent and open minded conversation with you,
        Ben Y.

      • And when someone is born with/inherit physical disorders i.e. Parkinsons’s etc.. as a medical community and in the world of science, we are interested in finding cures, and to treat the sick. There is no attitude that says “oh well, let’s just let them suffer and not try to find a cure/treatment”. Jesus said, it is not those who are healthy who need a doctor, but it is those who are sick. We all need healing.

    • The Bible does’t say that we are all in sin after you recieve Christ Jesus as your personal savior. The great Aposple Paul who did have some sin said if We confess our sin He is Faithful and just to forgive us of sin and cleanse us of All unrightousness. Paul didnt say to confess our sin and continue to live after the lust of the flesh and not repent of our sins. Jesus loved the woman at the well and even said woman where are your accusers, but he also told her to Go thy way and sin no more Lest the Worst thing come upon you. so Jesus wasnt saying to continue in sin so that his grace would just continue to abound for intentional sin. Jesus showed her love as we should also to others, but also warned her of the future if she continued to live a lifestyle of intentional sin. GOD.S GRACE GIVES US HIS POWER TO OVERCOME SIN BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD HE SHED ON THE CROSS FOR IT. AS WE CONTINUE TO ACCEPT THE POWER OF GOD IN HIS BLOOD. IM NOT SAYING THAT WE WILL NEVER BE TEMPTED BUT WE HAVE GODS POWER TO RESIST ANY SIN AND KEEP OUR LOVE FOR JESUS FIRST. HE SAID IF YOU LOVE ME TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS SO HE WAS SAYING HE GAVE US THE POWER TO OBEY HIM AND NOT WALK AFTER THE DESIRES OF OUR FLESH In 1 Corinthians 5:17 it says Thereforore if any man be IN Christ he is a New Christian, old things have passed away and behold or look all things are become New. We cant be a New Chreation in in Christ with the old things past and want to live a lifestyle of sin. He loves us to much to leave us in a state of sinfullness but we must be willing to let go and let God take ove and come in with his power to overcome the temptations of sin. The bible says to Fight the good fight of Faith to live and overcome. Gods love and power is in us that have recieved Christ as their personal Saviour to causes us to overcome everthing as we pray and believe we can overcome by His Blood and the word of our testimony. The Power of Gods love will cause us to Never fail but first we must trust God to fullfill his work in us because of his finished work of Calvary and Jesus sad IT IS FINISHED. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS

  3. I’m a teacher and taught for years in Christian schools. Many of my students were openly hostile to gays, and I knew we had some kids struggling with homosexuality. I made a point to the other students that the sin of homosexuality is no worse than any other sin. As a friend of mine used to say, “Ain’t no degrees in sin.” In God’s eyes, all sin is sin, small or large. We cannot change what the Bible says about homosexuality, but we also need to remember that ALL sexual activity outside of marriage is the same sin. All our pet sins are just as heinous in God’s eyes as the “big” ones. We would do well to remember to love people, regardless of their sin struggle. We all have a struggle with sin. God is big enough to redeem a liar, this, drunk, harlot, — or a homosexual.

    • Though I don’t completely disagree with your premise you are incorrect about all sin being equal.
      1 John 5:16-17 (ASV) “If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”
      There is a huge difference losing our temper and saying a bad word or murdering someone. To think or teach otherwise is asinine, misleading and destructive. The bible is clear that murderers, liars, fornicators, etc. will not inherit the kingdom. Thank God that those who don’t read their bibles enough or get mad a someone are not in the list.

      • Well, the ‘disobedient to parents’ sin will lead to death. The ‘murder’ will lead to death. The ‘turned away to their own passions’ sin will lead to death. All sins lead to death if they are not repented of and turned away from. Our God is merciful to continue to show us grace when we don’t deserve it. He is patient, slow to anger. But we are kidding ourselves if we think there are sins that are worse than others. There are consequences on Earth that will vary greatly (disobedience vs. murder), but in God’s eyes, only the negligence of recognizing His son as Savior is not pardonable.

  4. Indeed, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Well said by you. The church has marginalized itself by letting itself be defeated by the militants, the politicians and the judges.

  5. Thank you, thank you, thank you! You are someone who truly gets it. I hope, however, that you do not lump all fundamentalist churches into the “condemnation, laughter, hatred and jokes” pile. Not all fundamentalist churches are like that. In fact, I think you would be surprised — maybe pleasantly so — at how many preach only condemnation of the sin along with other sins while preaching repentance, love, forgiveness and regeneration. I go to a BAPTIST fundamentalist church and that’s what is preached there.

  6. This filled my eyes with tears, for it rung true and struck a chord in my own heart. How many times I have heard people tell me that “those homosexuals” are particularly depraved, and even, specially cursed by God. Little did they realize that I struggled with the very same desires which they considered so evil. When blatant homosexuality is seen, so often the first response I hear is visible and audible disgust; while a sex scene is afforded nothing more than a little sigh.
    Thank you so much for posting this, it is exceptionally helpful to know I am not the only one who has felt as such. May God use this to change the hearts of even just a few. Thank you again.

  7. The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert by Rosaria Champagne Butterfield (2012, Crown and Covenant Publications) details the step by step journey of a tenured English professor, Gay Studies scholar, and LGBT advisor into the Christian faith alongside a pastor and his wife and their church. Their openness without condemnation or pressure is an example for others, as is the author’s unrelenting academic honesty even when it turned her professional and personal life upsidedown.

    • Her testimony is primarily an example of the destructive power of social expectations. For all the “good” that came of her conversion, there is little said of the absolute destruction she must have left in her wake with the people and work she abandoned.

      • Chris, all I can say is that I know her and you do not. Her testimony is her testimony. You have continually noted that other people don’t feel as she does. Fine. So be it. I see truth in what she has said. And so do others. For reasons beyond me thousands and thousands of people have come to read her words in less than 24 hours since I posted them. Feel free to use your website to preach a different gospel.

      • Hunter, WordPress obfuscates the context of comments with the way it presents comments to the owners of blogs, but I just want to point out here that I am discussing Rosaria Champagne Butterfield, not the woman in your blog.

      • Having listened to her in follow-up interviews (readily available on youtube) she does discuss the pain and hurt that her conversion caused to many, many people around her.

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  9. It seems odd to say that those who wish to accept homosexuals give no one any hope, when I know for a fact that it, in fact, has given hope to some people. I’m sure it’s not your intent, but your third paragraph marginalizes or discredits the experiences of real people. Maybe there is something to say for sticking to the tradition, but it won’t solve the debate to make the sweeping generalizations you make here.

    • Chris your commentary is very sad. Your arguments and justifications are very weak and twisted. Your first argument is that God or Christianity has evolved as our understanding has increased. That is complete and utter nonsense and an outright lie. God never evolved on “slavery” or anything else. I was just reading last week in the Old Testament that if a slave ran away and came to them that they were NOT to return them to their master. So much for a pro slavery God.
      God did allow slavery as a compassionate alternative to slaughtering the wicked from idolatrous nations. He also allowed it among the Israelites as a means of compassion for someone who had lost everything and needed the help of someone else to survive and even then there were very specific and protective measures put in place and the slavery was not permanent. Nowhere did the bible ever approve of the kind of slavery that we are familiar with. To assume that the Old Testament is wrong because we don’t fully understand what was going on is a grave error.
      For you to try to twist the Bible by saying it says something else in its original languages is a very worn out argument. Every time someone does not like what the Bible says they say it says something else in its original languages which is 99.99999% inaccurate and utter nonsense. It is amazing how many modern day language experts we have who have looked in a Strong’s concordance and decided that all the English bible translators got it wrong. It is almost comical if it was not so serious.
      Your worn out argument that Paul only taught that we should not go against nature and that nature can be different for different people is ridiculous to say the least. The nature he was dealing with is not what is natural for us to do but rather what is natural in creation. He is very plain that creation shows us that sex is for male and female and not for male and male or female and female. No one needs the Greek to understand that. We are all sinners by nature and we all naturally want to sin and that has nothing to do with the “nature” he was talking about. I naturally wanted to give my body any pleasure I could and I naturally wanted to lie, cheat and steal. It was certainly not a sin when I went against my nature and turned to God for a new one. You should do the same.

      • You can try to justify it any way that you wish, but we (not God) changed in our knowledge of homosexuality. It is not really something you can debate. Don’t let your theological positions blind you from reality.

      • As I thought, you have nothing to say to anyone who can actually articulate what the Bible teaches and what it does not. For you to come back with a one liner saying that we have evolved and God has not shows where you actually stand.

        You use the Bible, twisting it at will, when it is convenient for you or when someone is not knowledgeable enough concerning it to discount your nonsense but when you are confronted with truth you say that the Bible was written by men who had not evolved in their understanding yet and not by God, which is exactly what you say further down in these replies. You say that you are a Christian but you but you don’t accept the Bible as the final authority on matters and your doctrines are based on man’s “evolving” philosophies about life. You should introduce yourself as a “Christian” who is pro homosexual and who does not believe in the authority of scripture rather than dishonestly beginning your conversations by saying what the scriptures “actually” teach in the Greek or Hebrew. You are intellectually dishonest and purposely misleading people and the Bible calls that a liar. Liars will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

      • And Chris, “we” have not changed in our knowledge about homosexuality in the slightest. You may have believed a lie or ten but the truth has always been known, is absolute and does not change with time. Understanding whether sin can be passed down through genes or whether we can be born with certain sinful predispositions is a debate that has been going on for centuries and is really nothing new. Medical science may help us to determine whether this phenomenon can be viewed scientifically or not and settle some of these debates but that does not change the truth that homosexuality is against nature itself and it is sinful and wicked. “We” Bible believing Christians have always known that and always will.

      • It is very amusing to me how defensive you get and how many unfounded assumptions you throw out whenever someone threatens your precious worldview. Moreover, you have to invent intentions for me in order for your worldview not to fall apart. Clearly, I am out to deceive the world! And for what?

        You know, maybe the answer to why I say what I do is *because I have done a lot of study of the subject and am qualified to give my opinion.* You, on the other hand, are merely equipped with a series of rhetorical strategies handed down (the fiction evangelicalism calls “apologetics”) and apparently no real critical thinking skills. I will grant that you’re very good at stamping your feet and whining that others have stepped outside the tribal boundaries! But when any serious academic refuses to engage with your ideas, don’t delude yourself that it’s because we’re all prejudiced and out to persecute True Christians; it’s because your ideas aren’t worth our time. Sorry!

  10. Chris, I am not making any generalizations. I am offering you the contents of a letter sent by a gay woman living with another woman. Her plea is for the church not to accommodate her lifestyle, but to continue to insist on the integrity of the scripture. I think it is a powerful statement made even more so by the fact that she speaks against that which would seem to benefit her.

    • Okay, then I mean to say that *she* is generalizing and discounting the experiences of others. But it would seem that you are supporting her generalization by condoning her message.

      • She probably feels as she suggests in the letter, but not everyone shares her sentiments. I personally am not gay, but I know for a fact that her sentiments are not generalizable to all homosexuals as she suggests when she says that people who accept homosexuality as-is “offer [homosexuals] no hope at all.” It’s simply not true, because there are counterexamples.

      • I think she she’s herself as a sinner who loses hope altogether if the
        church simply defines her besetting sin out of existence because she knows
        that is no solution at all.

      • If it is indeed true that homosexuality is not necessarily a sin (but may be in the same way that heterosexuality may be a sin if acted upon wrongly), then it will set her free from unnecessary guilt.

        I hate to bring up the comparison to slavery, because I’ve seen the comparison used wrongly before, but we decided as a people that we should value and respect human life in a way that the Old Testament does not. It is not good for one to be another’s property. We may similarly come to a conclusion that homosexuality is worthy of our respect and that we should treat it differently than the Bible does while maintaining the redeeming spirit that the Bible teaches.

        We must realize that while the Spirit works on all of us in a timeless fashion, our knowledge grows progressively over time. We’ve learned a lot about sexuality that we did not know in the first century AD. I’m not suggesting we accept all of modern sexual thinking wholesale, but we should at least be willing to adjust the specific applications of our principles (like how we treat homosexuals) while holding closely to the principles, themselves (opposition to sin, movement toward redemption and righteousness).

      • She’s not speaking necessarily of what “hope” people may wish for, but for the hope that people need. These are often not one and the same. This letter, like many of the Psalms, is a great example of an honest, yet uncompromising plea.

      • Perhaps. But it also makes the assumption that God’s word is just known and obvious to everyone. I firmly believe that Paul would have said that there is “neither gay nor straight” if he had understood homosexuality more fully. I’m not just trying to explain away someone’s sin. I want people to embrace who they are and live in ways that honor God.

    • I’m unsure where this comment will end up (who it will look like I’m responding to), so just in case, Chris Attaway wrote:

      “Perhaps. But it also makes the assumption that God’s word is just known and obvious to everyone. I firmly believe that Paul would have said that there is “neither gay nor straight” if he had understood homosexuality more fully. I’m not just trying to explain away someone’s sin. I want people to embrace who they are and live in ways that honor God.”

      I don’t see how this makes any assumption that God’s Word is known or obvious, but we can at least assume that not everything anyone says God’s Word means is true. What we DO know, is that God DOES mean things in His Word, and we should do whatever we can to interpret faithfully. God not being clear enough isn’t the problem, but our (my) density/thickheadedness/stubbornness/stupidity is the problem. We also know from Scripture that the Holy Spirit gives us understanding. What basis are you assuming Paul would say what you say he would say? Why do you think he didn’t understand homosexuality fully enough? He felt knowledgeable enough to speak on it. His culture was well aware and practicing it, even. In fact, our liberal culture today would probably be seen as too conservative to many in Paul’s day (in Corinth, etc.), since we have extra-biblical evidence sexual relations between men (married or not) and young boys was perfectly acceptable.

      Your desire for people to embrace “who they are” is a common one today in Western culture. The question of identity is at issue here because not even in ancient cultures practicing homosexuality, do we ever have sexuality as an identity. It was what they did, not what they were. A thief’s identity as a holistic person is not “thief”. I once asked a good friend who at the time was a new Christian and had just moved out of his male partner’s apartment, whether they thought themselves as still a homosexual or not. He surprised me with a wiser response than I had ever thought of: “I guess I used to be gay… no wait, I’m straight maybe? Well… I don’t know and I think it doesn’t matter. All I know is that I’m founded in Christ and by God’s grace my life will be worked out from that in due time.”

      • Actually, Paul never once mentions homosexuality as we know it (hold on for a moment while I explain). Yes, it is true that if you look in your English Bible, you will find Paul seemingly talking about homosexuals, but there are a few major considerations. First, there is no 1 to 1 correlation between the Greek words used and the English word “homosexual.” Invariably, the words used refer to people who participated in particular cultural practices. Second, when describing the act (particularly in Romans), he refers to homosexuality as something whereby one trades one’s natural desires for homosexual desires, which absolutely is not the case. People do not choose to have homosexual desires.

        For reasons related to my first point, it is also incorrect to say that the ancient people never considered sexual identity, because there were a variety of cultural practices which specifically identified people as such. The Theban Sacred Band consisted entirely of homosexual couples. You could not join otherwise. The Greek erastes/eromenos relationship, which I believe persisted into Roman times, even up until when Paul wrote, was the primary way in which homosexual relations took place in society. Further, that relationship was, in fact, fairly abusive, in that a youth served as, essentially, the submissive partner (sex slave, basically) to an older man in exchange for status, money, and perhaps tutelage. My pastor/theology professor believes that this is the primary way in which Paul would have understood homosexuality.

        There is much more to say, but I want to stress that the homosexual issue is far more comlicated than most evangelical pastors will admit, not even counting the overwhelming amount of evidence that homoseuxality is in fact normal and healthy if you approach it properly (like anything else). After all, it’s much easier to keep a crowd with catchy phrases than it is with serious academic rigor.

      • Thank you, Chris, for that historical perspective. What Paul had in mind may not in fact matter, because he was a product of his time. (“Slaves, obey your masters…”, “Women must not speak in Church…”) I think we have to decide whether we really want to live in the 1st century or the 21st century C.E. If we are to hold ourselves to the standards of the early Christian writers, then the implications are very serious for us. We cannot do it, and we should not do it. That way lies madness. Let’s live in our own time and just accept that people 2000 years ago had neither the knowledge nor perhaps the wisdom that we now have. 2000 years of anthropological change is not to be dismissed lightly. We must view with suspicion the moral teachings of people who had absolutely no understanding of the physical universe or of human evolution, and little understanding of human psychology. Maybe it’s time to take them off their pedestals.

      • Chris Attaway, obviously, we disagree on many points, but more importantly, we disagree on a fundamental point which logically results in the rest: Scripture is inerrant and infallible. I presume you would say otherwise, or perhaps infallible but not inerrant.

        Despite this, I’ll just say: I know many have tried to explain or interpret Paul’s (and others’) writings on homosexuality differently (I was once one of them), but it’s clear to me that contradictions in Bible don’t exist, just my misperception does. As for Genesis order, it seems only a contradiction because in today’s writing styles, we assume they would hold chronology the same as we do, but they didn’t. A Gospel writer says there are 14 generations between 2 people, but if you count them, there aren’t 14 of them (woops?) Biblical genres and poetic license were similar, but hardly used the same as today’s writing styles. And as for the Romans passage you allude to, if you continue reading he doesn’t just talk of natural vs. unnatural, but of men burning in their desire for men instead of women, etc. Why do you assume people don’t choose to have homosexual desires? I personally know many that chose to experiment. “But that isn’t ‘desire'”, you might respond. But then I’m sure you’ve seen how willful choices have resulted in shaping our hearts. I desire to learn C++ and object oriented design. I didn’t one day think to myself, “I will now choose to desire this.” But then again, my parents to raise me a certain way (willfully), my college prof chose to push a certain advice, and I have chosen to look into what programming languages would help a possible career in software engineering. haha. Anyhow, this can (and will elsewhere I’m sure) go on forever, which is why more importantly, agreeing on whether the Bible is inerrant or not would settle things more easily.

      • In all seriousness, do you realize how ridiculous your endless caveats sound? We, as Christians, have to jump through endless hoops just to salvage the doctrines of inerrancy. You’re a programmer, so you should understand efficiency in coding. The type of doctrine you’re espousing looks like a bloated mess of if-then statements and hard-coding.

        I used to be in computer science. A long journey later, I’m about to finish my degree in philosophy. One of the things that we learn in the philosophy of science is that you can rescue any idea with enough qualifications. For example, physics actually happens because of the will of gremlins. They’re invisible, though, and they do things in a very structured pattern that makes it look like the world operates according to laws, when in reality it’s just their personal preferences running the world.

        You really can’t argue with that sort of reasoning other than to say that there is absolutely no reason to believe that there are any invisible gremlins. I can’t disprove them, but they don’t explain anything. In the same way, you’re here making attempt after attempt to prop up the dying doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. I have no reason to believe any of your statements, even though they would, technically, explain the contradictions. Why should I accept that the differing genealogies are actually the same? Why should I accept that the different chronologies in Genesis 1 and 2 are just there because the ancients have a different idea of chronology? I’m not sure what this even means.

        Beyond that, the messages of entire books are different. I listed some examples: Judges vs. 1 Samuel, the Deuteronomistic history (disobey = curse, obey = blessing) vs. Job (obey = cursed anyway sometimes). The Bible is in tension with itself, and the writers of the various books intended it to be so. The authors of Job openly and knowingly challenge the idea that blessing entails good moral standing with God.

        The Christian evangelical position is more about drawing tribal lines of acceptance than it is about finding out the truth. You are allowed to think only this far, and then anything which lies outside, you must reel in with strange justifications and reasoning, or else you’re not part of the “in” crowd.

      • Oh boy. I think this will be the last response I’ll give here, as it’s clear no one is going to convince the other, and we’re leaving the topic at hand.

        I too, started in Computer Science for undergrad, but continued an M.A. in Theology (which I haven’t yet finished), while also taking classes in the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics program. But besides beating our chests and showing off our expensive cars, I don’t presume to prove a biblical worldview, but rather I wonder if you see how just as ridiculous your endless caveats and endless hoops seem? I’m guessing you’re smarter than me, but that’s not what I’m counting on, because I’ve seen smarter people than me still biased, and smarter people than me that hold to inerrancy as well. From what I understand (again, from smarter people), they don’t have a different idea of chronology, but a different value of it. Similarly, a society or culture that doesn’t value irony or cynicism may intellectually understand my use of it, but wouldn’t value it and therefore wouldn’t use it still.

        These “messages” of Judges vs. 1st Sam, etc. that you list, seem (obviously to me, but I guess it shouldn’t be assumed for all) to be representative of the people, not of God. They asked for a king like their neighbors (early in 1 Samuel), but God only gave them one because of their pleading, and clearly not because it was good for them (Samuel’s response to their pleading, I don’t remember what passage at the moment). Blessing, or rather righteousness, is definitely correlated with obedience, but hardly blessing in the sense that many today view it (e.g. – what I want, what makes me feel good, etc.) The point of the impossible perfect record (which Job shows towards his end rant with God that he isn’t perfect), is to point to the need for a saviour. Again, the Law is our tutor, not our righteousness. It points us to the law of grace, fulfilled in Christ’s person and work. I’m (relatively) sure you’ve heard this stuff before, so again, I’m not sure how productive our discourse here can be. You have these presumptions that evangelicals are all like this or like that, more concerned with something other than finding truth. You apparently haven’t come across the many evangelicals (that hold to Bible inerrancy) that wrestle seriously with logical truths and Scriptural claims. I (and many others I know in academia) would hardly care whether we were accepted by an evangelical “in crowd” if it were ever at the cost of compromising our conscience. Please give them (us) more credit. Hmmm, that reads harsher than I mean, but alas, I’m not the best with my words. I hope to improve on that as well.

        Blessings in your journey and search,

      • While I realize our debate is at an end, I should note that I am, in fact, surrounded by such evangelicals. They take academics seriously, but I maintain my assessment that innerancy is more about towing the line and keeping up cultural appearances than it is about finding the truth. In a sense, the conservative academics are the slaves of the tribalists who have convinced us that “real Christianity” goes *this* way, not *that* way. Color outside the lines, and you will find yourself with an angry mob of evangelical gatekeepers trying to break down your door, but feel free to use your god-given creativity to prop up the dying beliefs of the financiers of the university.

  11. I’m confused. In her letter she speaks as if she’s struggling against the sin of homosexuality and wants the church to know that she needs their encouragement as she seeks to live in accordance with God’s word. But above, you say that she’s still living with another woman??? Is this other woman her mom?? Is this other woman her lover? If she’s a lover, how then can the writer of this letter claim that she’s trying to struggling to leave her sin? If she’s not willing to physically leave, then she’s not trying at all. The physically getting up and leaving is the easy part. The rooting the sin out of the heart is the hard part. Why won’t she leave her lover (if it is her lover that she is living with)? Does she stay there because she has no place to go? If that’s the case, then the church needs to step up and have someone open their home to her.

    • Well think about it in the perspective of sin in general. A heterosexual or even a relationship as simple as a friendship can become an idol or a sinful center of one’s life. Say you live with a friend who is living in lust or addiction, pick any sin really, but you are very close to this friend. Walking away might be hard if that friend is your best friend. In a marriage a spouse could be cheating on or abusing the other. Often people find it hard to leave what is comfortable even though it’s hurting them. The case usually is not as easy as waking up one day free from your sin. People don’t wake up and say, “I hear God telling my that work has become an idol in my life. I’m going to quit and up and move from Florida to Utah because he has told me to do so.” Usually. And although that is the kind of devotion God calls us all to have, not everyone has it down. Walking away from sin itself can be much harder than deciding that it is something bad for you. Living with someone you gave your heart to probably is a difficult thing to leave.

      • Not to mention the kind of guilt you would feel leaving a lost lover and feeling that your leaving catapults her even further from Jesus.

  12. Please pass along to this sister in Christ, that I (a guy who does not struggle with homosexuality but struggles with a variety of other things) am encouraged by her words, and look forward to the day when all of our temptations will be eliminated and forgotten. Also let her know there are many of us who DO still preach the gospel to sinners of all stripes, and we hold out love, hope, and kindness to them all.

  13. Good stuff. A couple thoughts.

    “When the word “homosexual” is mentioned in the church, we hold our breaths and sit in fear. Most often this word is followed with condemnation, laughter, hatred, or jokes. Rarely do we hear any words of hope.”

    Does this really happen? Maybe there are some Bible-believing churches where people are so self-righteous and blind that they think they are better than people who struggle with homosexual desires, but I think it’s a very small number. I could be wrong, but I think this is mostly a caricature that Christian haters and our cultural elites perpetuate. I’m convinced that the perspective many Americans have toward “evangelicals” is a flat out lie and distortion to confirm for the secularist fundamentalists that we’re all a bunch of judgmental hypocrites who think we’re better and more moral than everyone else. Show me a so called Christian who is like this, and I’ll show you a so-called Christian!

    I don’t know if homosexual activity is more or less a sin than any other sin. Paul does call it unnatural, which he doesn’t do when referring to heterosexual sin. There clearly are degrees of sin, but mainly in the material consequences of our lives. But before the living and holy God, we all deserve one thing: Death! Jesus paid that price, and the only reason we can come before God is his mercy, grace and love. Period. Every Christian knows struggle with sin, and if they don’t I fear for their soul. I think for most Christians God chooses not to take away our sinful desires, and thus we sin. The fight, the struggle, the failure keep us where we need to be, at the foot of the cross.

    Read the parable in Luke 18, and understand the very essence of the Christian faith:

    “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    • “Does this really happen?”
      As a believer who has often struggled with homosexual desires, grown up in a pastor’s family, attended seminary, and attended countless Christian events, I feel (regrettably) confidant in saying that, yes, it does happen. I believe a lot of it is rooted in ignorance and a dislike of things and people that are different. I have known some who think that since such a desire is “unnatural” then it must be a temptation freely chosen by the tempted. I have known some who consider me to be especially cursed by God, that God has heaped these temptations on me because of some specific sin in my life. I have known some who think that being tempted to lust after a member of the same-sex is a sin in and of itself, while maintaining that temptation to lust after a member of the opposite-sex is just purely natural. I have had some professors and pastors who will quickly say from their platform that homosexuality is wrong, and that those who practice such things ought to repent, while failing to give grace in their words. And others just laugh at and tell jokes about gay men and women. But I have known a few who are exceptionally gracious, they give words of hope to those with homosexual desires, they point to the transforming work of Christ, they are realistic and say that one’s feelings might never change, some have even said that they could easily see themselves in my shoes, they treat all brothers and sisters as equal before the cross, and yet they do not minimize the sinfulness of homosexual actions. They are careful to tell of the evilness of homosexuality while graciously saying “I am not talking about those who are tempted by homosexual thoughts, you can still be a Christian and face such temptations.” I am exceptionally grateful for these men and women of faith who stand on the truth of God’s Word while graciously seeing that they are no better.

      • CT, that’s a real bummer. I’ve been going to a large church in the Chicago are for at least seven years, and have never heard a sermon relate to homosexuality. But I have heard a sermon or two about pornography. How many people that condemn homosexuals partake of that stuff? The only time homosexuality has been talked about from the pulpit was to announce that Christopher Yuan was coming to speak about his book and life for a six week course. He got a great crowd and was lovingly accepted. Maybe our church is unique, but I have to believe, or maybe I hope, the self-righteous in the Christian Church are the exceptions and not the rule.

      • I have always been taught that the best way to tell the difference between trial and punishment is that with a punishment, you would have absolutely no doubt what you are being punished for. Otherwise, it is a trial and God is purifying you with it. I’m sorry that some people have told you that you’re “extra bad” or else God would not be tempting you in such a way. That is just a load of crap! Instead, I think you must be extra-strong and that God will use your experiences to further His kingdom in ways we cannot understand! It is helpful, not a hindrance, to have been tempted and come on the other side with God’s help. You will be a great mentor and encouragement for your brothers and sisters in the future who struggle similarly.

  14. Wow what a touching letter! I lived 15 years in a lesbian lifestyle and I thank God He led me to a church that showed me the love of God yet did not sweep my sin under the carpet so to speak! Had my pastor and his wife come across in a condemning way I would have ran the other way! I was raised in a pastors home and ran from the Christian life as I could not live up to what I was being taught! As far as continuing to live with her lover, if that is indeed who she is living with, I would say that is not the best, it is very hard to walk away from someone or something you love but, as Jesus told Paul when He asked three times to have his thorn removed, He told him My grace is sufficient. It is hard to believe that but I can testify to the fact that His grace is sufficient! Has not been an easy road but I would not trade anything as it has truly taught me to trust in The Lord with all my heart and not to lean to my own understanding! I am not sure where this lady is from but would love to connect as a source of encouragement as I know first hand the hurt and the struggles she is going through! There is so much more I could write!
    Blessings! Marsha Bejian, Heart Of Purity Evangelism (HOPE)

  15. Mother Mary was not sinful. She was conceived without the stain of original sin and remained pure for the rest of her life.

    • Justin, thank you for your comment. I do want to ask where you see this statement or principle in scripture, that Mother Mary “was conceived without the stain of original sin and remained pure for the rest of her life”?

  16. As some one who can relate entirely with what my sister wrote I want to say that suggesting the acting upon of the sin is what is truly sinful is an arguement of symantics that leaves little resolution to anyone. She is entirely accurate in her statement that suggesting that homosexuality is not a sin offers no hope to anyone. It is as though we tell the alcoholic that he isn’t sinning unless he drinks, the sin of wanting the alcohol and idolizing is not resolved. Pacifying does not resolve the destructive nature of sin. I love how she writes the line of holding breathe. This is not only a reality it is a painful truth. The place that we should feel at home is not safe to be honest in. Homosexuality is and will always be a sin, and just like the alcoholic doesn’t choose his addiction, and the anorexic is seeking after a deeper emotional goal; those who find themselves in the grips of homosexuality did not choose their circumstances. Sometimes God removes an inclination of temptation from a person following their conversion experience and sometimes He calls us to trust His strength in out weakness and love without conditions or expectations. Sister if I don’t see you in this life I will be waiting for you in Heaven with arms open wide.

  17. I would say that the argument that best puts this in perspective is to understand that the motivating principle of Christian ethics (biblical/and Jewish as well) is life affirmation. What makes this planet different from all others is the existence of life, the gift of the triune God. The tree of life in the first paradise to be a part of the final paradise is our prime life symbol. Homosexual “marriage” is not only an impossibility, it is a latent death wish: it cannot survive one generation. I believe the following completely “pro-life” manner of living is in part what the Author of Life would desire for us to have:

    The Way of Truth, Life & Light:

    1. Worshiping and obeying God, Who is the eternal and supernatural source of life
    2. Acting as attendant and steward of the creation, which is the temporal and natural source of life
    3. Working heartily to gain sustenance for life and glorifying God through the expression of creative activity
    4. Confining sexual intercourse to the nurturing bounds of marriage (male and female) for life’s procreation and conjugal fulfillment
    5. Recognizing that sexual intercourse in the bounds of holy matrimony is an intimate sacrament of unity exclusively between male and female (no procreation of life outside of God’s creative order).
    6. Nurturing human life from conception to adulthood
    7. Avoiding murder, torture, violence, carrying out terrorism and unjust warfare, and causing unnecessary animal suffering and death
    8. Practicing behavior that is healthful (life-perpetuating) and attending to the healing of those who suffer
    9. Sharing of the earth’s resources among all people, attending to the poor and disenfranchised, and practicing sacrificial giving
    10. Depending upon God and the Body of Christ (church) for life’s security
    11. Avoiding sinful, life-threatening behavior and lovingly admonishing those who sin
    12. Affirming, proclaiming, and celebrating the life-giving truth found in both the special and general revelations of God (God’s Word and God’s works)

  18. I am new to this blog and was brought here by a link to this letter. Thank you for posting it.

    I’d like to say I agree with the author of this letter that we should not change our message but still show love. My concern, though, is how all “Christians” are branded the same. I am not homosexual and so I have never struggled with anyone treating me poorly for that. However, I have known many from the homosexual community and I know we didn’t treat them any differently than anyone else. Most of them didn’t claim Christianity and there were significant other differences in our lives, but we could still get together and have fun. I’m not saying there are not Christians who are nasty and cruel to homosexuals… but really? The whole church in general? All Christians? This is what I hear when I see the media and read letters like this.

    I have had health issues since I was a child. Usually very serious health issues. I’ve had “Christian” after “Christian” tell me it’s God’s punishment and if I didn’t confess sin, or change and believe in God’s goodness for me, I would never be healed. These “Christians” have not read the whole of Scripture and they are wrong. But that, by no means, gives me permission to label ALL Christians with the same brush.

    I would like to challenge those in the homosexual community to stand up tall and brave. If they are honestly seeking to know how Christians who love God love sinners, perhaps it is time to either try a different church or talk to a different Christian. Yes, there are whole churches who have terrible doctrine, and this is tragic. But before ALL Christians are labeled as hateful, I’d like to be given a chance. You haven’t been to my house for dinner. You haven’t been invited by me to my church and my small group. Yes, we’ll tell you what we believe about homosexuality and that it is a sin. But you’ll also hear me say that I struggle with gluttony, and that I struggle with the sin of pride. I do my best to walk in holiness, and I would welcome you on the journey with me.

    We may struggle with the sin but we serve a God who can give us grace to live in holiness – saying no to sin, saying yes to the cross!

    Many in my church would do the same. But, instead of getting to know us so we can give the invitation, we are accused of being haters and written off as part of a homophobic religion.

    Good post.

  19. Dear Brother in Christ,
    I would really like to thank you for your listening to the Holy Spirit to share this letter on your blog. I was listening to you today on WORD FM in Pittsburgh, and what you said was powerful, and I appreciate a man of God who is willing to stand by the Truth and share it with others, even though persecution may be the result in this world. This is an issue that is tearing churches apart, tearing denominations apart, and I am sure the devil stands by loving watching God’s people fight over something that years ago was just accepted as a sin (not any bigger or any littlier than any other sin. A sin is a sin). Satan doesnt even really have to get involved. He threw the pebble, and we allow it to make ripples in the church. Thank you, thank you, thank you for standing firm in your faith. My faith and understanding of Scripture commands me to love the homosexual (and everyone else) as He has first loved me. Love does not just allow people to live in cirumstances that are hindering their Christian walk. Love nurtures, love disciples, love confronts, love disciplines. Loving this person is meeting them where they are, loving them where they are, but always confronting with the truth of Scripture, which is that homosexuality is not in God’s designed plan for human beings, therefore leads to destrucion…in my opinion, the loving thing to do is to pray for and with this person to avoid destruction.

  20. Thanks. One correction. Instead of “To those of us who know God’s word and will not dilute…” I think it should read “From those of us who know God’s word and will not dilute…” easier to understand in the paragraph. Imo

  21. This must have been a hard letter to write. Only one thing bothered me. It is the responsibility of those of us who struggle against our sin nature to confess our faults to one another so that we might be healed. When I “went congregational” with my struggles, it was amazing the outpouring of love and support (for me, not my sinful struggles) shown by my brothers and sisters in Christ.

  22. is it entirely scriptures or its just we defending those who called themselves gay or far we should love them i supposed show the true meaning of being a christian..but is it for them (Homosexual) to still love what they called an compromising ‘okay’ but hiding behind the truth or was that fine when they know the truth(word of God) and still doing for their own sake.

  23. Forgive me, but I fail to see what’s so “astonishing” about this. Would think this to be not uncommon. If anything is astonishing, it’s that such a open letter would be received as astonishing.

    • Yes Brian P, this shouldn’t at all be astonishing, but sadly, for many it is. One thing I’ve learned from living on the west and east coasts for 17+ years each and now in the south, different circles of Christians don’t think alike, know the same speakers/authors, nor wrestle with the same struggles. We are thankfully rooted in the same Gospel, but our same rooted sins manifest themselves differently.

      More importantly, our culture (which includes church congregations) thinks this of Christians, and so (unfortunately) a (sub)mission of the Church is only do what we can to breakdown those misunderstandings and rebuild with truth.

  24. This woman’s extremely wise words and humble confession puts a real face on this discussion. One of the key problems with the whole issue of gay “marriage” is the gay and lesbian movement, which by its stridency and in-your-face rhetoric has made it a public agenda and not a personal one-by-one situation. They demand public acceptance of something that could simply be a private matter of pledged fidelity, which would not have raised this to the level of challenging the very meaning of marriage, which is the core of society, the bulwark of the family, and the hope for all remaining human generations. Marriage puts a hedge around the nuclear family and helps support a man and a woman as parents who do most of the sacrificing to provide the blessings that homosexual individuals enjoy and gain sustenance from, but could not be produced by homosexual unions. We are, after all, natural, biological creatures who were mandated by the Creator to be fruitful and multiply. Though those who practice homosexual behavior rankle at being reminded that such behavior is unnatural, the truth remain: Homosexual unions are no way to maintain a biological community.

  25. This woman’s testimony is not inspiring to me. It is heartbreaking. Her confusion and unhappiness are palpable. Because I fathered and raised a gay son, my paternal instinct kicks in when I read stories like this, and I just want to take her in my arms and tell her she’s beautiful just as she is. If someone could only rescue her from that blighted environment where she is condemned, ridiculed, and hated, where she has learned to equate her own sexual desires with lying, adultery, lust, idolatry, and addictions.

    You can see that she has completely internalized all this loathing and that it has created a very toxic psychological brew in her life. “Thank God we are not what we were,” she writes, as if she had really sloughed off her sexuality and were no longer gay. But she still IS gay, and she knows the taunts are directed at her.

    Worst of all, she can never again be proud or happy, because she can no longer own her desires. Her desires are now mediated by the Church. She is told to desire what she cannot desire, to despise what she does desire, and to despise herself for desiring it. This is a recipe for madness.

    Her story is so obviously tragic to me because I’ve witnessed something utterly beautiful and joyous: the love between my son and his husband-to-be, and the happiness their love has brought into their lives. I wish the same for this young lady, but my fear is that she is now trapped and has no way out. I’ve seen many others like her, and I just want to tell them, “This is NOT necessary! Get out of whatever cult you’re in. Now!”

    • God forbid, pun intended, anybody should struggle with their desires. How repressive! How terrible! How psychologically damaging! Oh, I have this desire, it must be good and natural and normal, and I am compelled to follow it! Or I will not be true to myself! Of course the sheer hypocrisy of this outlook is that anyone who holds it knows damn well that not all desires are equally valid or good, and that’s exactly the way they live their lives. Maybe thebentangle, whoever he or she is, has a desire to have sex his/her wife’s/husband’s best friend. You can bet your life he/she will struggle with that desire, and no one dares call adultery a good thing that must be indulged simply because we desire it!

      And you just have to love that traditional, orthodox Christianity which has stood the test of time to say the least, is all of a sudden in our homosexually obsessed age a cult! Seriously? The idiocy of such a statement is breathtaking. The reasoning of the homosexually obsessed, including a so called “right” to marriage and to re-define it, is facile, sophomoric, specious, shallow and any other word you can imagine that captures how truly ridiculous it all is.

      • Mike, I think you are reading far too much into my words. I did not say that we should never struggle with our desires, or that every object of desire is worthy. But homosexual desire is no less beautiful than heterosexual desire. My hope for this young woman is that she will find another woman to love and to cherish until death do them part, and that they will own and affirm their desires for one another in marriage.

        I don’t think there can be any doubt that traditional Christianity is sometimes cultish in its emphasis on submission of one’s natural desires to God or the group or the cult leader, as the case may be. In extreme cases, like this one, a person’s individuality can become so subsumed by that of the group and its values that she loses touch with what is natural and healthy for herself. She barters any hope of sexual fulfilment or holistic happiness in return for a sense of “belonging.” This is exactly what happens in cults, and, frankly, I find it very disturbing.

      • Maybe I am reading too much into your words, but that was kind of my point. You state that “homosexual desire is no less beautiful than heterosexual desire.” On what basis do you affirm this? You seem to think this is just axiomatic, and that anyone who might disagree with you is cultish. Your affirmation of homosexual desire is simply arbitrary, and based on nothing other than that you wish it to be so. This is the most frustrating thing about this whole current obsession with homosexuality. Every human being, from Stalin and Hitler, to Mother Teresa, to Billy Graham, to evangelical atheist Richard Dawkins, to you, all draw moral lines in the sand. This is common sense, right? You and I, because I am a Christian, and you are not, draw different lines; mine are based on the Bible and 2000 years of Church history and teaching, yours are based on, well, whatever seems right to you I guess. So why is your moral line better than mine? Or more enlightened? Or less cultish?

        You belong to the cult of post-modernism, where everything is tolerated, except those who affirm Biblical morality, specifically Biblical sexual morality. The foundation of Biblical ethics is that man is made in the image of God, but that man fell when Satan convinced him (and Eve) that they could be “like God, knowing (i.e. determining) good and evil.” We call this “the fall,” how sin entered the world. Sin, and the most hardcore atheist know the world is a messed up place, but they have zero explanation for why, has severely disordered not only human desire, but human thinking, human emotions, human relationships, everything. Our sexual desires, even if they are not homosexual, are disordered because of sin. It takes a lot of effort, especially for men, to keep them in check and use them as God and nature intended. Homosexual desire, far from being “natural and healthy” (according to whom?) is disordered sexual desire, and it ought to be resisted like every other disordered desire. There are plenty of miserable homosexuals who hate these desires and wish they could be rid of them. They know that the last thing that will bring them holistic happiness (if such a thing in this life is even possible, and I strongly doubt it) is to submit to them and deny their conscious.

      • Mike, where you draw your “moral lines” is determined largely by the authority of Scripture, tradition, and Church teaching. Mine are simply pragmatic and consequentialist. (I am definitely not a post-modernist!) If a behavior has no harmful effects, then why prohibit it? If my gay son appears to be happy and declares that he is happy, who am I to tell him he is not? I believe him, and I can think of no reason why his love for his partner should not make him happy.

        I hear this woman’s suffering in her words. She struggles with herself constantly, as if she were struggling with an addiction. But sexual desire for a loved object is not an addiction, nor is it “disordered,” unless it entails harm to someone. It is natural and healthy.

        According to whom? According to every one of the major health and social care associations in this country. The American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Sociological Association, and some others I can’t remember at the moment.

        All these organizations, with their hundreds of thousands of members in the health professions, have stated unequivocally that homosexuality is not disordered. The World Health Organization has also done so. You can find these statements if you search the Internet. Also, take a look at the amicus briefs from these organizations for the two Supreme Court cases (on DOMA and California’s Prop 8) that are coming up next week.

      • For my next trick, I will quote you and offer no further comment.

        Exhibit A: “’When the word “homosexual” is mentioned in the church, we hold our breaths and sit in fear. Most often this word is followed with condemnation, laughter, hatred, or jokes. Rarely do we hear any words of hope.’

        Does this really happen? Maybe there are some Bible-believing churches where people are so self-righteous and blind that they think they are better than people who struggle with homosexual desires, but I think it’s a very small number. I could be wrong, but I think this is mostly a caricature that Christian haters and our cultural elites perpetuate.”

        Exhibit B: “The reasoning of the homosexually obsessed, including a so called ‘right’ to marriage and to re-define it, is facile, sophomoric, specious, shallow and any other word you can imagine that captures how truly ridiculous it all is.”

      • Both of those quotes come from Michael D’Virgilio. In the first, he exclaims that the overtly self-righteous, condemning depictions of Christians are an invention of those who would try to shame the church, but in the second, he exemplifies that which he believes is mere caricature.

    • (Clears throat) Ummm… I think there’s a problem here sir and you need to start addressing it physically and spiritually. You have gone way too far with your “son and his husband-to-be”. Read that article or letter with understanding, homosexuality is pure sin and an abomination before God, let’s call a spade a spade. The Bible says in Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”. I perfectly understand her struggle, as in, perfectly. Her case is completely different from yours, I’m not sorry to say this at all, what you have just said, promoting evil, claiming that the love between your son and his husband-to-be is strong…JESUS!!! that’s a complete disaster.

      If you are truly born again, holy! you would know better. The spirit of homosexuality and other forms of sexual immorality is a foul spirit, there is nothing good about it. If that sister ends like that, she is damn sure burning forever. In her case, she acknowledges her weakness and need for help, she needs help! and God will help her and give her grace. But in your case, you have blindly accepted evil. You sir, need to change and speak the truth and call off whatever unbiblical and ungodly wedding your son and his so-called husband-to-be are planning.

      If you know who I am, then you would know that I have gone deep in the world of sin, and I have adequate experience in evil; so I am no saint.

      I believe in GOD, and I believe in Jesus, and you are dead wrong!!!

      Please go back to your Bible, look unto Jesus, invite the Holy Spirit in, and I am 100% sure that your eyes would be opened immediately and you would see how bad this is. Jesus said in Revelation 3: 20 “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

      God bless you infinitely!!!

      • What about those of us who believe we have looked at the scriptures properly (and with the ever-ambiguous “guiding of the the Holy Spirit”) yet disagree with you on the issue? There are many of us. Obviously, God has not “opened our eyes” in the way that you would have liked, but I do believe God has opened our eyes. I think what you mean to say is that “If you read the Bible MY way, you’ll gain acceptance into the conservative evangelical ‘in’-crowd.”

  26. While we should all recognize that all sin is “sin”, we should also recognize that it says in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination before God. Nowhere is any other sin called an abomination before God. The Bible also says that there will be no homosexuals admitted to Heaven. Should we take these words for granted continuing to sin as we will or should the words have more impont meaning than what we grant them?

    • Kent, you write that “Nowhere is any other sin [than homosexuality] called an abomination before God. Here are ten others “abominable” sins, including a few that you may commit yourself:
      Eating obsters, shrimp, clams, octopus, and squids (Lev. 11:12)
      Four-legged fowls (Lev. 11:20)
      Four-footed flying, creeping things. (Lev. 11:23)
      Whatever crawls on its belly, goes on all four, or has lots of legs. (Lev. 11:42)
      Sacrificing a blemished sheep or goat. (Deut. 17:1)
      Women who wear men’s clothing (Deut. 22:5)
      The hire of a whore or the price of a dog (brought into the Temple) (Deut. 23:18)
      Taking back an ex-wife after she has been defiled. (Deut. 24:1-4)
      The work of a craftsman (Deut. 27:15)
      That which is highly esteemed among men. (Luke 16:15) (This could refer to either wealth or the esteem of one’s colleagues.)

  27. Thank you so much for this article. I am sixteen years old and have been struggling with the idea of homosexuality for a while. I have been forced to supress my personal belief that homosexuality is wrong because my friends rarely listen to the second half of it- that just because a person is homosexual, does NOT mean they are a bad person; basically, love the sinner, hate the sin. I’ve noticed that people like to categorize other people’s beliefs into one of two extremes, and so I often get put into the “I think all gays are evil devils” category when that couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’m glad that there are others out there with my point of view- it gives me courage to stand up for what I believe.
    I understand both sides of this issue. I struggle with a pornography addiction (compounded by the loss of my father a year ago), and it is one of the hardest things I have ever experienced. Sexual sins are incredibly difficult to deal with, and those with sexual issues need love and support, not condemnation or an “anything goes” attitude.

    • Grace, if you tell people you think homosexuality is “wrong,” which you are entitled to do, then it doesn’t much matter how you qualify your statement after that. You have made a moral judgment about someone’s character or behavior. If an older friend of yours tells you she is getting a divorce, would you tell her that divorce is “wrong?”

      I personally don’t think it is necessary to tell people what they are doing is wrong, unless asked. It’s just part of being non-judgmental, and it has to do with the Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Unless you are without sin, do you want others telling you that you are “wrong?”

      Also, “wrong” is a mild word for what your religion teaches you about homosexuality. It is not just “wrong.” It is “inherently disordered,” and it is “an abomination.” People know that religion teaches this. Everyone knows it. So when you use the word “wrong,” in a religious and moral context, people do understand that the actual judgment you’re making is much more serious, and even damning. Everything gets complicated when eternal damnation gets into the equation.

      So if you want to tie yourself into that, go ahead, but don’t be surprised when your friends back away. And don’t accuse them. They have sensed that you are an accuser, and that has made them uncomfortable.

      Try living Christ’s words: “Judge not…”

      • Grace, that is such an encouraging comment! thebentangle, I have long wondered when people will stop using this line out of context, “judge not…” Please read the whole excerpt in its context. No, I don’t expect you to change your mind because of some silly commenter’s response (mine), but hopefully you will at least accept that there is much to be said (and much that has been said) to this surprisingly still used card. Jesus is not saying don’t judge between right and wrong. If you really haven’t heard the multitude of responses to you line of reasoning, then let me list a few:

        Leviticus 19:15, “You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.”

        And if you are of the school of thought that Old Testament scripture is primarily descriptive and not prescriptive, then Jesus’ words Himself in John 7:24, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

        As for judging or not judging, can you see how you are just as judging as telling her that she is doing something wrong? If using your reasoning, then did she ask you for your opinion? No. But again, it doesn’t matter whether she asked. You still judged. (which you should!) I would just propose that what’s more important than whether we judge, is what standard we judge by. For the Christian, that standard would be the Bible.

        But this is all a moot point, because what you speak of refers to bigger issues. I’m not trying to put you down, nor disregard your comments, but the Bible hardly speaks like other religions (you’ll have to take my word that before becoming a Christian, I read through an English translation of the Koran, and the current Dalai Lama’s collection of speeches, “Essential Teachings of the Dalai Lama”, etc.) So no, not “everyone knows it”. Many twist or were just taught incorrectly (sadly, often by people in/from churches).

        As for speaking to non-Christians, yes, it is often difficult or not helpful to refer to Scripture, since it’s not a common ground or agreed upon standard. And so the discussion between Christians (this is a Christian’s blog) can and should involve Scripture and scriptural claims, while on the other hand discussing the issue with non-Christians should be about more basic worldview issues, like right and wrong, postmodernism, culture, absolutes, and truth (e.g. what right do I have to tell someone that stealing is wrong if they’re stealing from someone rich that won’t be hurt by it?)

      • Ben, if you were trying to make the case that the Scriptures contradict themselves, you could not have done a better job. You have laid bare the massive theological confusion about moral judgment.

        My own view, which does not try to resolve itself in Scripture, is that judgment is inevitable, and it is part of human nature. So, in that sense, Christ’s words (“Judge not,…”) cannot be taken literally or applied uniformly. But they do point us toward caution in judging others, for there is always a beam in our own eye when we point out the speck in another’s.

        The standard by which homosexuals are judged by the Church is of course biblical (Old Testament), though Jesus himself had nothing to say about homosexuality and even healed the male servant of the Roman Centurion. (Look into the historical context for an understanding of this.)

        But applying Biblical standards uniformly leads into some sticky wickets. What are you to do with Biblical injunctions against eating (or even touching) pork, wearing fabric of mixed materials, and eating shellfish? Will you stone an adulterous daughter?

        As for discussions “between Christians,” I take the view that everyone needs perspective at times, and that always talking only to one’s cohorts is a little like inbreeding, which does not produce strong and healthy offsprings. If I am unwelcome, the owners of this site will soon let me know.

        I am concerned about the victims. And I see this young lady, returning week after week to a Church where she is despised, as a victim par excellence.

      • thebentangle, again, the argument that Scripture is contradictory is another old one and probably to be had in another context. If you really want to know the reasoned responses, they are aplenty on the Internet (many horrible ones, but there are reasoned ones), or even better, find a thinking Christian to ask. Many (including myself) once thought Christians were just judgmental hypocrites and that the Bible contradicted itself, but by God’s grace, eventually I found (or was found) by reasoning thinkers with satisfactory answers. I hope the same for you.

        One of the most important things to keep in mind when considering any Scripture, is context context context. Books and books have been written in response to your concerns and would do a much better job than I in a comment field, but in short, anything written is for a specific audience with a specific purpose. The Old Testament passages you refer to are also written for a specific people at a specific time, and a correct interpretation depends on keeping any statement in context. Of course, this doesn’t mean we disregard those passages, it just changes how they are applied. As Paul wrote in the New Testament, the Law (i.e. the sampling of laws you refer to) is a tutor. Before Christ came, there was no way for even the most “faithful” to understand the “law of grace”. But now that Christ has come, He fulfilled the old Law in a sense that didn’t “abolish” it. Perhaps the best start to understanding (I’m in no way “already there”) how to correctly interpret and then apply Scripture (from the Old or New T’s) is start with the understanding that the Bible is hardly (aka not) a rule book. It is a story of Love, which includes an understanding of what perfection requires and how we cannot achieve it, ergo a perfect substitute is necessary, not to pay the Devil, but to pay God what is owed. His wrath on me is righteous. I see that now. Thank God I also see His redemption plan (love story) in the perfect life, death, and resurrection of His only begotten son. We are adopted into this gift of family not because of anything we do, but because of what Jesus did. I think I threw out too much Christian lingo really, but I’m tired and I much prefer talking in discourse instead of typing out comments at a blog! Paul’s whole letter to the Romans is a good read on expounding this Gospel (“good news”). As for other viewpoints, yes! They are very welcome, but please understand that many of us understand exactly what she is saying, not because we are “elite”, but because by God’s Spirit, or just plain thickheaded talking this out over many hours with others that have been down the same road, it’s lingo and concepts we can relate to and finally understand in light of Scripture. So yes, I’m sure you are welcome, but please try to understand that maybe you don’t know exactly what she means, and that others may know better. I highly doubt and am almost certain the author of the letter is not tortuously going back to her church each Sunday as if a masochist. She sees her sinful being appealing to other sinful beings, something the church has and should always be full of. It is a travesty for people (church goers or not) to think any congregation full of righteous by merit people. Many Christian thinkers have written about how the “more mature” one becomes in their faith, the more repentant they realize they need to be. Thank God we don’t depend on the Church or clergy to save us, but Jesus Himself. James wouldn’t write in his letter that we should be confessing our sins to one another if we weren’t meant to.

      • Regarding contradictions in the Bible, there are many, many such examples if you take the Bible literally. The gospels cite events which happen in different orders, the creation order in Genesis 1 is different from that of Genesis 2, etc. But there are many contradictions which do not disappear even if you read the Bible under a more sound hermeneutic. The book of Judges is very pro-king (the people did what they wanted because the did not have a king), whereas the book of Samuel is very anti-king (Samuel is adamant that a king will only exploit the people). The books outlining the history of the Hebrew people argue that if you disobey, God will curse you, and if you obey, God will bless you. Job says that sometimes God curses you for no explainable reason, and it has nothing to do with whether you obeyed.

        These aren’t really debatable contradictions. Different parts of the Bible argue for different things. That doesn’t mean that we throw out the Bible; it just means that the Bible isn’t quite what many say that it is. My own personal blog has several posts regarding this issue: “A God Beyond Belief,” “Why Belief is Problematic,” and “Discerning Ridiculousness.” I would also recommend Peter Enns on along with the “Slacktivist” and “Exploring Our Matrix” blogs.

      • Chris, what is your “take-away” on this? When the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, should we consider that to be the Word of God? When do we accept the moral teachings of the Bible and when do we simply view them as the product of another era, an era when things we now understand were not fully understood? Or should we always assume that Bronze-age peoples knew better than we?

      • I believe the Bible is the product of a culture reflecting on God and writing according to their own knowledge in light of God. I don’t have a particularly convoluted doctrine of divine inspiration to try to justify a predetermined position. God exists, and creation speaks to Him. As we learn more about the world, so too do we learn more about God.

        I give much more in-depth analyses in my blog, specifically in the articles I already mentioned.

  28. Frist I want to apologize for the Churches that have sined against you. I have looked at this for long time and prayed about it for long time. How will the church deal with homosexuality and Pornography u could make the list go on for ever.The bottom line is sin is sin and if u don’t get the sin out of the camp it will kill you; sin is death. The one thing God and Satan have the same is they are both trying to kill you. If you don’t die to your flesh and drink His blood and eat His Flesh u will give in to the ways of this world. We have to die every day if not hour! What If i told u your done with sin.Do we have the faith to believe that. How many people did Jesus tell to “Go and Sin No More” and we say well that imposable. Well if he said it do u think he would just say some thing to tease people. There is a reality for it. So Go after your secret places with God and don’t for get all his promises.

    • Collin, this sounds absolutely ghoulish. What are you saying to this woman? She should “die to her flesh,” drink Christ’s blood and eat his flesh? She has to “die every day if not every hour?” This is sick. Ben, Mike, and Grace, what do you have to say to this? Speak! I wrote earlier that this was cultish, and I was right. This is like something out of “Rosemary’s Baby.” Please say that you don’t believe any of this. Otherwise, tell me you think the Philippino Catholics’ literal bloody flagellations and crucifixions of themselves every year on Good Friday is right, good, and healthy. I cannot imagine anything more revolting or, indeed, disordered.

      • *sigh*. thebentangle, I’m not sure how else to say it again, short of saying, “read the Bible and hopefully you’ll understand that Collin isn’t talking about cannibalism”, but it’s another example of lingo and diction. It’s hardly ghoulish, but yes, I can understand why you may think that. It’s no surprise that the early christians were rumored (by the Jews in their day) to be cannibals, exactly because they spoke of drinking some guy’s blood and eating his flesh. It’s the same language Jesus used Himself, and just like many literary tools and genres in the Bible, we can be pretty sure Jesus wasn’t advocating they take a bite out of his body as He reclined at the Last Supper. The Roman Catholic theology of transubstantiation (literal transformation of wine and bread into literal blood and bodily flesh) is, again, probably something to be discussed at another time. Suffice it to say, Collin is using perfectly normal “Christianese” that’s understood by many and not at all “cultish” in the common sense, aka an offshoot of mainstream/orthodoxy or accepted religious practice or thought. I’m really not sure how much of these tangents are useful or helpful, since I highly doubt you’re any more convinced, nor anyone else less convinced. Again, books and books on these topics, while this is just a blog comment text box. Heh…

      • Though I have sided with thebentangle elsewhere, I agree here that, at the very least, collin is using Christian language which is not at all out of the ordinary. It does, however, seem like he emphasises the death portion more than the life which we receive through Christ, which is yet another subject on which I have written, very recently, in fact (click my name for a link to my blog — this particular article is called “The Cyanide Christ”). Further, there is still the issue of whether homosexuality is immoral in the first place.

    • I’am sorry if any one took my post wrong and did not understand what I was getting at. My point is that we all have areas in your lives that don’t see eye to eye with God. He is the one that Judges the motives of the heart. If your after the truth Jesus will reveal it to u.It take great courage to say what this woman has said. I believe we are at a crossroads in this area In church and the world.If we have faith to stand on the word of God and believe what it says to love your neighbor as your self. Do we love conditionally if it acts right, if it talks right, if it fits in your box right. The truth is that we are all accountable be for a Just and Holy God that’s not swayed by are ways.My Hope for you sister is that Jesus heals u and greater is he that live with in you then whats around you.

      • Nothing to “heal”. She is not broken but only in the eyes hysterical superstitious hyper religious individual. Education is the cure to all the worlds problem. I hope she realizes that there is nothing wrong with her.

      • I agree, Kyle, and I also hope that she never reads this blog thread, because much of most of it will make her feel worse than she does already. The “condemnation and hatred” she spoke of are here in abundance.

  29. Wow I love you whoever you are. I love your doctrine and your faith in God thank you so much for this!! Your faith and love for Christ is astonishing!! I love you!!!!! Thank you so much for this!

  30. Please finish to see what I have to say:
    I have often said the same thing. ie: we all are sinners, why treat one persons sins different than another?” well, the gay person wakes up and is not repentant, they wake knowing they are staying gay” to which I reply” you wake up knowing many sins that YOU are going to commit that day, what is the difference?”


    I have a problem with this: “You are willing to compromise the word of God to be politically correct.”
    YOU, sister, do the same thing.. EVERY day. do you accept slavery as normal like the bible does? why not? do you mix fibers in your chlose like the bible tells you not to? why? there are a HUNDRED things that we have changed in “political corectness” and plain old common sense, that NEED to be changed.

  31. Having served as a military chaplain for years, I counselled some young Churchmen who were gay. (Those were the days when–essentially–men served, by and large.) They were not mocked or laughed at. They were serious about the issue as was I. And, they were faithful to Christ while repenting quietly and struggling from time to time. Heterosexuals have their own challenges, sins and opportunities for repentance. The larger message of sexual fidelity and sexual immoralities is wider than the gay issue: adultery, fornication, gay issues, bestiality, pornography, divorce, and remarriage. You have the recipe quite correct and quite right, thankfully. Your recitation of the text from Revelation was spot-on. A good word.

  32. I feel so sad for this woman. Brainwashed into thinking she is a sinner because of her nature. This cult needs to end.

  33. Pingback: An Open Letter to the Church from a Lesbian – Justin Taylor

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  36. I am not sure this article deals with the issue correctly. In fact by my account it may be somewhat deceptive. What I see is a very a subtle form of double-speak. The author writes,

    “When the word “homosexual” is mentioned in the church, we hold our breaths and sit in fear.” Should a homosexual not sit in fear? Should an adulterer not sit in fear?

    Here is the question which I do not believe was addressed by the author. Does a practicing homosexual have a right to join the Christian Church? Does he have a right standing to all the benefits of the covenant community? I am not speaking hear of one who joins and falls into sin – be it fornication, drunkenness, etc. I know later in the article the writer, speaking in the third person, condemns those who would not call homosexuality a sin. But what is his real point (agenda)?

    Consider for a moment the same article written trying to deal with abortion doctors.

    “To the churches concerning abortion doctors:

    Many of you believe that we (murders of children) do not exist within your walls, your schools, your neighborhoods. You believe that we are few and easily recognized. I tell you we are many. We are your teachers…accountants, high school athletes. We are all colors, shapes, sizes. We are single, married, mothers, fathers. We are your sons, your daughters, your nieces, your nephews, your grandchildren. We are in your Sunday School classes, pews, choirs, and pulpits. You choose not to see us out of ignorance or because it might upset your congregation. We ARE your congregation. We enter your doors weekly seeking guidance and some glimmer of hope that we can change. Like you, we have invited Jesus into our hearts. Like you, we want to be all that Christ wants us to be. Like you, we pray daily for guidance. Like you, we often fail (and out of greed perform an abortion).

    Should the Church not speak out against abortion because some abortion providers sit in our congregation? Should a preacher or elected official now approve of abortion because they find out their son is an abortion provider.

    This may be a case of dealing with reality, but burying the truth!

    In fact, the title of the article “An Astonishing Message from a Gay Sister in Christ” what if we changed it to “An Astonishing Message from a Abortion Doctor in Christ”? Or perhaps “An Astonishing Message from a Pedophile Brother in Christ”? Wow, we are so influenced by the popular media of our day!

    • Jerry, I just wrote to Kyle that I hoped the author of the “astonishing message” would never read this blog thread, because all the “hatred and condemnation” she finds in her church are here in spades. My advice to her if she does read it is, “Get out. Leave the church. Join a church that welcomes you and affirms who you are. Join the Congregationalists, or the Unitarians, or the Quakers. Your environment is toxic and will slowly kill you.”

      Jerry, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

      • My friend. I can tell from the tone of your response that you are the real hater. If this woman believes she is a “Gay sister in Christ” then tell me, what do we say and do with the “abortion doctor in Christ.” How about the “Nazi Jew hater in Christ?” All true Christians are In Christ and still struggle with sin. But to identify oneself in light of sin is not Biblical. It is a subtle celebration of the very sins for whch Chist died. In the words of the writer of Hebrews, it is trampling Christ under-foot.

      • Jerry, my point is that homosexuality is not sin any more than heterosexuality is sin. So just remove it from your list of horribles. It is a part of the wonderful diversity of creation, and we should honor it as such.

      • thebentangle, I’ve been resisting commenting, but my inbox has been deluged with your shallow sentimentality and I just can’t take it any more. You are a walking cliche! Your ethics is a lie based on so called “experts” and your own opinions, and ultimately on nothing. You assume without any evidence or argument, that your views are neutral and objective and based alone on cool calculating reason and rationality, practical without a hint of faith necessary. In fact, your presuppositions are factless, baseless and useless, a leap of faith into the void of a knowledge without any metaphysics. Go read some Plato and Aristotle, let along the Bible, and maybe God will give you the grace to realize just how shallow you are.

        All comments to my inbox henceforth shall be deleted and unread. Cheers, and the end!

      • Mike, you don’t really think you can shut me up by just placing your hands over your ears and holding your breath, do you? 🙂 But thanks for giving me the last word.

        It’s all very well and good for you to say my arguments are “factless, baseless, and useless,” but they do in fact reflect modern medical understanding of homosexuality. I don’t set much store by “faith” in these matters. Nor am I a Platonist. My view is virtually identical to that of hundreds of thousands of medical and mental health professionals all around the U.S. and Canada. The views I am expressing reflect the scientific consensus. What is “factless, baseless, and useless” about that?

        Your vaunted “faith” in this matter has produced nearly disastrous results in the live of this woman whose message we read. You have caused her much suffering, and I want to alleviate her suffering by telling her she is loved just as she is. (“There is love somewhere,” goes the song. —Sorry if overburdens you with trite sentimentality.)

        I would like to see you and others stop beating up on her. Stop crucifying her. She has been like the woman caught in adultery on this site, and the hypocrites have gathered around her, poised to cast their stones. It’s wrong. If you didn’t learn that from scripture, then you learned nothing.

    • jerry –
      grace & truth. thank you.

      for some reason several who are in the bondage of homosexuality (and some others not desiring to be offensive) believe their homosexual temptation is uncommon. they believe they can never be free from the sin that so easily entangles them.
      i believe it is a lie from the pit of hell and this is why they can never walk in freedom. Romans 6
      this gives the enemy room for making division in the church. we believe the lie that homosexuals are an “elite” sin status and that they can never be free. we must coddle them. not offend them. do not address the subject in the church.
      sadly we are deceived.

      a homosexual. a murderer. a pedophile. a drunk. a hater.
      …and such were some of you. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
      but now – a redeemed homosexual. a redeemed murderer. a redeemed pedophile. a redeemed drunk. a redeemed hater. make up many congregations.
      we continue to preach the truth about sin. what the Bible says. being dead in sin. confessing sin. repenting of sin.
      and now that we are the redeemed?
      we preach — walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. Colossians 1:10
      this is for ALL redeemed sinners who are now called saints.

      dear sister in Christ –
      there is NO temptation that’s overtaken you, but such that is common to man; and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape, also that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13
      your sin does not define you, you are redeemed. such were you, now walk in a manner that is worthy of the gospel. take your thoughts captive to Christ, stand firm against the enemy and he will flee. continue to fill your mind with what the Word says about homosexuality and who you are NOW in Christ. speak TRUTH to your soul, often. PRAY consistently. do not let your specific sin struggle put you in a defensive state when it is the subject of the sermon or lesson or topic of conversation. remember you have been freed. forgive those who talk about it without truth and grace. embrace the opportunity to turn the story about you toward the only One who can rescue and redeem the dead sinner to life. use your story to bring glory to God..turn it that direction at all times.
      when you stumble, confess and turn from it. Continue to walk in the grace that has been given you.
      this is what I do when i sin.

      the sin of homosexuality is not an “elite” status of lifelong bondage. you have been set free. let’s be on the alert to not allow this one sin to be divisive.
      it is common. endure.

      if therefore, the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36

    • Did you honestly compare homosexuals to pedophiles or abortion doctors? And further down you compare them to Nazis. Are you just trying to say nonsense to make people mad, or are you really that stupid?? You deserve nothing but ridicule for such an ignorant series of comparisons. Homosexuals are not bad people. I know a very nice lesbian couple, and I have a gay cousin. They are all good people. They did nothing to choose their homosexuality. There is not a medical organization in the world that will ever support such a notion. It doesn’t happen. It is not a thing that exists, a gay person who chose to become that way. Scientists have looked for at least 60 years now to find any evidence corroborating the ancient prejudices, and there simply is none.

    • Totally agree with these comments. This letter/ essay rings as a fake to me. It seems like a conglomerate of commonly used techniques that twist logic using subtle, but very common tricks. I find it full of fallacy and untruths. This is an attempt to advance the gay agenda through deception and I did not fall for it. I’ve read too many formulaic ‘anonymous’ letters advancing other agendas, that were identical to this one. These are designed to generate sympathy for practices that are wrong, ungodly, or evil and appeal to the naive and gullible.

      –Wm. Brown MD

      Forest, VA

  37. I am sorry for your experience with Church. I too have had an awful time with church in over coming some mental health issues. I do my best to walk in love and forgiveness towards the body that although I am a part of, very often I feel like I am standing on the outside looking in through a window. I am a strong person and it has been both a blessing and a curse, but what i will do is stand my ground for Christ. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about because for years I have attempted to minister to many people dealing with homosexuality. I ALWAYS have to overcome their concern that “God hates them” and it has always surprised me with a person guilty of fornication or adultery never seems to bear the same burden or at least to same degree.. So I agree with you and pray that God will always minister to you what you need to be what He has called you to be! Bless you.

  38. Barthian theology rears its ugly head from time to time. So we set aside doctrine of reconciliation and substitute a cultural peace without offense.

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  43. There is a difference between “Loving God and struggling with sin” and “Loving Sin and struggling with God”…

  44. I can’t believe all that I have just read in this thread. No wonder people are leaving the “church” in droves and becoming athiests. I have been a Christian (22 of those years were as a Christadelphian) since the age of 14. I am now 62 but I am ashamed at the ridiculousness that people live under in the name of God. The Bible says, “Judge not, that you be not judged”. How much clearer is that? The moment you start to make judgements about others is the moment you yourself will be judged. We take on God’s role but are not equipped for it nor has God commissioned us for it. Our role, according to God’s Word, is to love one another; not esteeming ourselves better than anyone else and leaving the judgements to God. If we have the Holy Spirit to guide us then why do we doggedly quote 2000 year old laws and stay stuck in that era? God is a living God and is not stuck in history like we are. He wants us to graduate from the milk to the meat but we are hanging onto the nipple for dear life. School books are exchanged for experience as we develop but we are stuck with the primer in this case. It is these things that cause and foster divisions, hatred, wars, brother against brother etc. Let us live in peace with love toward one another without judgements and let God do God’s work. I believe in God, not in tradition or in religion. I am guided by Him, not by writings or interpretations of men. The Bible is good for understanding our roots and the struggles of mankind throughout history and has good principals to live by if we take it for ourselves and not use it to judge others by, as each of us has to work out our own salvation. God will weed out the tares and make His own selection for His Kingdom without our interference or misguided “help” and, more than likely, it will include many of those who we disapprove of.
    Does that mean we accept everyone who has a different outlook on life from ours? Yes, for everyone has their own journey to complete and it is not the same as mine or yours and God will determine the end result, not we.

    • We need not fear when, as a result of our doctrinal convictions (be they based oupon the Word of God alone), if the result causes a seperation of the sheep from the goat. Did not Christ tell us this would be the result?

      • Matthew 25:31-46. It is not doctrine (another word for law) that will save us. Doctrines, of a necessity, demand judgement. Firstly note that it is Christ, not us, who will separate the sheep from the goats and at the last judgement, not before, as everyone until then has the opportunity to find his/her walk in this life. It is not for us to judge, in the midst of someone’s journey, that they are not worthy because they do not fit our doctrines and relegate them to the status of goats . Secondly, it is those who feed, water, clothe, support, visit, care for their fellow journeymen/women without discrimination who are called to be “the sheep”. It does not mention doctrines. God’s grace extends to everybody without exception. We say we live by grace but we are far from doing that ourselves. (Read Matthew 18:21-35. Particularly note verse 33,) “You should have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you”.
        Unfortunately, grace stops dead when it hits doctrine.

    • I beg to be different from your views, we should not judge doesn’t mean we should not discern right from wrong, this phrase has been misused so many times for so many compromises, If there is any act clearly against God’s words we should be able to discern whether it is right or wrong, look at Leviticus 20:13; 18:22, Rom 1:26-27 (both OT and NT), God’s words clearly say it is a sin and a serious one. On contrary to what you said “If we have the Holy Spirit to guide us then why do we doggedly quote 2000 year old laws and stay stuck in that era? God is a living God and is not stuck in history like we are. He wants us to graduate from the milk to the meat but we are hanging onto the nipple for dear life.” However, Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds what of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20, ESV), By the way, Holy Spirit is leading us into the truth and remind of what Jesus has said to us (john 14:26), long year in church it doesn’t be equivalent to know more truth. If we love our brothers/sisters we should learn to wash their feet (John 13:1-15) , not just accept it, don’t you give advise to your brothers or children or love ones if you notice there are obvious mistakes such as clearly against God’s words, or don’t you think the bible is God’s words? I believe you do believe it is, otherwise you won’t quote what bible says in Matt 7:1 or Rom 2:1 about “do not judge”, what do you think Jesus’ judge on Pharisees and scribes on Matthew 23. was he wrong?

      • No, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, he did indeed fulfill them, thereby setting us free from the Law because law in all of its forms cannot save. Many Christians pay lip service to this but continue to wear the chains of legalism.
        And no, he was not wrong about the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus condemns their hypocricy because they demanded everyone to keep every jot and tittle of the Law, but they themselves did not practice what they preached. Jesus condemns this hypocricy yet this is unfortunately still alive and very well in the churches. We should not point the finger at anyone because we ourselves are no better. Our sins might be different but no less sinful. The Scripture says “There is no one who is righteous… not even one”.
        However, Romans Ch 3, verse 22 says, “God puts people right (or makes them righteous) through their faith in Jesus Christ. God does this to all who believe in Christ, because there is no difference at all: everyone has sinned and is far away from God’s saving presence. But by the free gift of God’s grace all are put right with Him through Christ Jesus who sets them free. Verse 28 – “For we conclude that a person is put right with God only through faith and not by doing what the Law commands”.
        The Law cannot save. Ch 4: “If Abraham was put right with God by the things he did, he would have something to boast about – but not in God’s sight. The Scripture says, Abraham believed God and because of his faith, God accepted him as righteous”. Verse 5 -“But the person who depends on his faith, not on his deeds, and who believes in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is his faith that God takes into account in order to put him right with Himself.”
        Imagine if you lived in the days of Paul when he was still Saul and going about relentlesly persecuting the Christians and sending them to their deaths. You would have counted him as your enemy and God’s enemy and condemned him as lost and going to “hell” but you didn’t know the end of the story. Look what happened. God had other ideas. Same today.
        We must let God do the dividing and we must have faith that He knows what He is doing and can bring whoever He chooses to salvation without needing our “help” in applying the “law” because then we are as the Pharisees, telling others what to do but being as whitewashed sepluchres ourselves – white and pure looking on the outside but defiled within, for there is none who is righteous, not one.
        We are told to reflect God’s Love to one another, support one another, pray for one another, help each other in life’s difficulties and share in it’s joys, and arm in arm, sinner and sinner, travel life’s road together and not question God about how He does His work or whom He chooses for His jewels.

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  47. I can only say that God’s design and how he created us is beyond our comprehension. It is not for us to judge anyone but to look inward to our own hearts and to live by one of God’s great instruction to Love as He has loved us and To do unto others as we would have them do unto us. It is plain and simple. Every single one of us is a creation from God. We are all valuable and All are Sinners. Praise God , Praise Jesus!!!!!!!! Praying for all of us on this great spinning Sphere in the Universe.

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  50. Love covers a multitude of sins. Why do we insist on uncovering them in public, demand others look at them, and then use them as some sort of springboard for righteous posturing about degrees of degradation?

    Noah’s sons refused to look upon their father’s naked drunkenness. In so doing, they preserved his human dignity in their OWN eyes. They needed to preserve his place and dignity as their leader-father in order to continue in unbroken fellowship of family and community. Noah didn’t go out the next day and ask for forgiveness, judge others as being too holy/hypocritical to accept his drinking “disease” or otherwise demean his God-given dignity. If he felt sheepish or unwelcome after being so grandly “covered,” that’s his own heart problem.

    But, all this hand-wringing is false. The seemingly temperate appeals for understanding are based in a false-hearted need to uncover one’s sins to the wrong judges. If God loves you and has forgiven you, walk on in your journey, pray in secret (we ALL have a closet!), and do not seek wide acceptance or the false codicil of “understanding.” Forgiveness is not about “understanding” or “acceptance.” It is much harder than diamonds, more real and abiding. You have need of nothing else from Christians except that you allow yourself to be covered, your dignity intact. Can you let us do that? Or is your own particular need greater than that of your brothers and sisters in Christ?

    Have you considered that the divorced, who are far greater in number than homosexuals, face an even stronger condemnation in the New Testament? But their years of conferences, healing prayer, bible studies, and cries for understanding, have made divorce almost entirely acceptable to the modern Church. This “acceptance” has not yielded the peaceful fruit of righteousness in Church communities. Peace for the individual, sure, of some sort. The rest of us? Not so much. But we cover. And cover.

    So, please understand what I mean when I say, “shut up.” Is that hard? It’s hard for everyone who is struggling with sin. We’re not allowed to parade our depravity because it destroys fellowship, erodes dignity, and believe it or not, it encourages others to sin. It does.

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  52. I picture two people.
    One says “I am flawed, and I will strive to become a better person.”
    The other says, “accept me for who I am, I will not change.”
    Which one do we think would lead the more fulfilling life?

    • I also picture two people. One is left-handed and has been taught his entire life that left-handedness is of the devil. (“Sinister” is from the Latin word of the same spelling, meaning “left, unfavorable, portending bad luck.) He says, “I am flawed and will strive to become right-handed.”
      The other is also left-handed, but he has figured out that left-handedness is just part of human variation, like premature baldness and homosexuality. He says, “Accept me as I am, for I will not change.”
      Which one do you think will lead the more fulfilling life?

    • You’re right! They’re just as disregarded and not-taken-seriously as the holy atheist that tells the religious that they are flawed.

      In all seriousness, name-calling isn’t going to get you anywhere, let alone listened to, but my guess is you’re more interested in pushing buttons than productive discussion. Whether the religious, the conservative, the liberal, or the irreligious, it’s an important skill to be able to talk with those that hold other opinions. Tolerance doesn’t (in older dictionaries like Oxford’s) mean only being okay with those you agree with. It means “a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one’s own; freedom from bigotry.” Let’s, shall we?

  53. The one who is told, “Despite your flaws, I love you unconditionally”, God. That covers everybody, for all of us are flawed.

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  55. If you would ever like to know what it feels like to be both gay and a believer in Jesus Christ, read the comments to this article and try and reconcile them into one clear thought and rest in it. There is very little you can say that a gay believer has not already said to themselves in the pew on Sunday, at a friend’s wedding or at 3AM in a cold sweat. But love does not relent, brothers and sisters. I thank God that I have his word, his spirit in me and his church. He pursues me to the depths and carries me. Truly my homosexuality is a blessing to keep me at the foot of the cross. If anyone denies that, it is they who should shutter in the pew at the mention of a whitewashed tomb or a sinner holding stones. Not I.

  56. Pingback: A Message from a Gay Sister in Christ | Six:11 Ministries

  57. Pingback: A Christian Defense of Homosexuality | The Discerning Christian

  58. it is an article misleading in understanding the grace, yes, we are sinners but we are in the process of sanctification, we are not as perfect as our Lord Christ, but we are striving to be more like him through Holy Spirit (Roman 8) daily, and we should never be proud to be committing a sin and consider it is ok because we are all in some way being not perfect, If we sin, we definitely feel shameful and ask forgiveness from God and repent immediately and want to get out from our sins, and will not to ask others to accept our sins and think it is ok to remain in sin, How can we continue in sin to show the grace abounds (Rom. 6:1) John 1:9 “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9, ESV)” simply put, we cannot continue remaining in sinning, and ask for acceptance because we all sin, we should all confess the sins if we do committed, repent, and get out sin at this moment via Holy Spirit. God is love and we should love each other, However, it doesn’t mean the sins have no consequences in this life, king David sinned, he suffered of the incest occurred in his household, the death of his son, and persecution by his own son, Absalom (2 Sam. 11-17).
    yes, God is love but He is holy as well, he has mercy but he has wrath as well, He desires everyone be saved (2 Tim 2:4) but there are many will end up in Hell as well (sorry for the striking word) Don’t over magnify God’s love only and forget He is righteous and holy as well. don’t remain in sinning in order that grace abounds, please be known that the grace is to lead to repentance, please do not ask acceptance in order to remain in sin (as you acknowledge it is a sin), if you want to remain in sinning, just say I don’t want to change, I like here, don’t mislead. for honest sake. I will continue praying for you, and I love you as a sister that is why I am bold in saying these.

  59. Based on the majority of comments I, apparently, saw the point of this woman’s letter completely different. Unfortunately, the real gem is in the third paragraph (which Hunter points out), which would be difficult to see, if, by that time, one had already started forming their rebuttal.
    Here’s what I see to be the point: when the “church” (I’m using that term loosely), starts sleeping with the same enemy I do, the hope for my rescue vanishes…
    I have a burden for this woman, and the many others, who sit in institutions that call themselves churches, that are hearing a different gospel than the one that saves. The true gospel is that God is holy and just, so sin must be punished. Man is sinful, therefore, we are separated from God. Scripture says the wages of sin is death, and that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. For anyone to receive the gift of God, which is eternal life, the wrath of God has to be satisfied. God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to be crucified, to take the very punishment every single one of us deserves. But, then God raised Christ from the dead showing that God has power over sin and death itself, so that those who believe would be freed from the chains of sin and death. And all this for His Glory.
    The true Church, will stay true to the word of God till the very end. They will not compromise, regardless. They will continue to preach Christ and Him crucified. They will continue to call sinners to repentance. And they will continue to call those that consider themselves to be believers, but, continue in a lifestyle not consistent with scripture, to examine themselves to see if they are even in the faith.

  60. Reblogged this on All I meant to email you… and commented:
    I talked a good friend of mine. He is very intelligent; attending a university of the likes of Harvard etc. He is godly and loves the Lord. We had just finished discussing our opinions on a book by Elisabeth Elliot, The Mark of a Man, which is about…yes; what it means to be a MAN and not a boy!!! I was praising God for such a man who feared God before me. I was excited to see how God was going to use him as a husband and father when he dropped the news. “I’m not sure if I will actually have to make a decision, Fleur.” he said. “Why not?” I retorted. “Because I struggle with same sex attraction.” I was quite stunned but surprisingly calm. We met together the next day to talk and he asked me to share my heart and thoughts. “I’m honestly quite frustrated at God! Out of all the guys out there…YOU have to struggle with this?! You who are so equipped to be a wonderful father etc. ! And because you fear God and struggle with this, you have decided to remain celibate the rest of your life. I can’t imagine how hard that is going to be!!” His reply silenced me and brought me to tears. “Fleur…yes, I won’t have a wife to romance, I won’t have my own family…but I have Jesus in my life. What else would I desire, Fleur? ” My dear dear friend showed me how shallow my desires are. They don’t even outlast this lifetime. This dear friend of mine who struggles with same sex attraction had to show me how far I am in my own relationship with God. I need such friends in my life.

    Here a very helpful links concerning homosexuality.

    • It’s encouraging to hear you are losing your faith in humanity…humanity offers us nothing. I pray God will grant you the gift of repentance unto regeneration, so you will know Jesus Christ and Him crucified and a faith that will set you free. I praise God you are so offended by what you are reading; it shows how deeply you are being stirred.

    • Dear Kyle,

      I don’t think we know each other personally but I’m glad you stopped by and left your opinion here. Interestingly, I think losing faith in humanity generally is pretty natural as when we begin to see us humans for who we really are. Unfortunately, we aren’t able to see each other face to face in this blogosphere. If you knew me personally, I wouldn’t have to convince you that I’m not “the friend” struggling with homosexuality. Your assumption is to a certain degree understandable. However, do you not think that it would be EXACTLY in the blogosphere (where anonymity is prevalent) that I would feel comfortable to proclaim my “identity” if I WERE to be struggling with such sexual attractions? I absolute agree with you that we should really start to be real with ourselves and others around us. Would you be so daring and honest to reveal YOUR identity then? As I don’t think I know a Kyle among my acquaintances.


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  62. Reblogged this on Orthodox Ruminations and commented:
    “To those of you who would change the church to accept the gay community and its lifestyle: you give us no hope at all. To those of us who know God’s word and will not dilute it to fit our desires, we ask you to read John’s letter to the church in Pergamum. “I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore!” You are willing to compromise the word of God to be politically correct. We are not deceived. If we accept your willingness to compromise, then we must also compromise. We must therefore accept your lying, your adultery, your lust, your idolatry, your addictions, YOUR sins. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.””

  63. Christ said the greatestest commandment of all iS what you find @ Leviticus 19:18. He never repeated Leviticus 18:22. So there is the Christian Answer: Love One Another.

  64. First: True or not, I thought this letter was amazing and I know personally people who would completely agree with her view-point. There are a lot of people in the world, so the argument “I don’t know of any who would say this” is kind of silly. In the grand scheme of things you know a very small percentage of the lgbt community.
    Second: I’ve seen the argument posted about slavery in the Bible and there are several misconceptions about it. The slavery we know of, people being kidnapped from their homes, shipped off, and sold, half starved over-worked and uneducated is NOT the slavery that was condoned in the Bible. Slavery that was permitted looked more like this: You would pass a slave on the street and have no clue they were a slave, skin color of slaves varied, they were given adequate shelter, food, and clothes, they made a wage and eventually could buy their freedom. They were not considered to be bottom of the totem-pole, so-to-say. Many times, people would sell themselves into slavery to beat poverty.
    Source: Matt Chandler sermon “slavery and the skeptic” I don’t know if he quotes sources in this sermon, but I’m sure you could send an email and get adequate sources.

  65. Pingback: A letter to the churches of Christ from a lesbian sister in Christ | thereformedmind

  66. Pingback: An Astonishing Message from a Gay Sister in Christ | Entrusted

  67. The Lord has created us according to His Will and intent.
    He has created man for woman, woman for man.
    If we are willing to obey Him, we will think with His Mind.
    If we refuse, we will reap His Will as well.

  68. Pingback: A Predicament of Love | Ryan E. Ross

  69. Well yes people who engage in immorality live amongst us and we’ve always know that. We just done condone their immoral choices. Honestly, we wish they would stop engaging in gross immorality in our midst to be truthful. But some people enjoy engaging in immoral acts and that’s what’s most important to them. Glad it’s not me.

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  71. Wonderful expression of Faith! I am trying to be more like Christ and Witness to all sorts of people. Many people struggle though with the scripture that says ” all sins are within the body” but Sexual Immorality is a Sin outside the Body” Whether cheating on your wife, homosexual relationships, or divorce. The Bible is very clear that this type of giving in to sin is to sin against your own body! The Bible is trying to address the guilt we feel. I am and have also been Guilty of this type of Sin! Jesus and The Holy Spirit not only heals us but he gives us the strength to be in Godly relationships. Married now for ten years with 5 kids, two grandchildren! Not all Christians condemn, find a good Pastor and be discipled.

  72. Pingback: Blog Casserole – 02/29/2013 | The Passionate Follower's Journal

  73. Pingback: An Open Lesbian Letter to the Church | The Publican

    • The world and all it’s institutions (education, music, radio, news, government, academia, business, etc.) is trying to recondition everyone to the acceptance of homosexuality with 24/7 propaganda. Is it any wonder that so many young people are now “struggling with their innate homosexual feelings”?

  74. Thank you for sharing the message. It is a powerful message and a powerful reminder for all believers.

  75. Kyle, Jesus loves you profanity and all. He also loves everyone else who has commented here. He, of all people wants you and everyone happy, fulfilled and content in every way. He accepts us like we are but he wants us to have more enjoyment more peace and more love then we have now. He left all the good stuff in heaven so that he could come here, be treated disrespectfully, be laughed at, and finally killed unjustly. Why? because he wanted you to have an amazingly good life. Better than anything you have ever imagined. More love, more acceptance, more friends, more happiness. Since he is God himself, he knows how you can get that. Try having a talk with Jesus, he’s waiting to hear from you. He will answer you in a way you could never imagine, in some way that you will understand. He gave up a lot so that you could have every good thing you want. He’s a good God to me, I know he will be to you.

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  77. I find this essay/ letter to be hopelessly confused.

    The statements in the first paragraph (“we are your congregation”) are just so misleading, but I suppose they sound good to some. I found the claims to be not just obviously false, but ludicrously so. This is a “type” of letter that seems to be copied and various causes simply inserted in a’ fill-in-the blanks’ style. Almost identical letters have circulated all over the internet with AIDS and other causes in place of homosexuality. It’s also an attempt to make everything morally equivalent.


  78. Pingback: Surprising Views from a Gay Christian! | iconobaptist

  79. From Jean’sBistro2010’s blog: Awesome article. Will post at my wordpress thanks. You bet Sister I embrace you with Christ’s love. I agree with you wholeheartedly and love you with my heart.

  80. Pingback: An Astonishing Message from a Gay Sister in Christ | Jean'sBistro2010's Blog

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  82. Jesus taught we are born LGBT (Matthew 19:12), that the Apostle Paul ordained Single Gender marriage (1 Corinthians 7:8-9), that the Holy Spirit warned that in latter times some would fall away from the faith, having been seduced by doctrines demons teach and forbid people to marry (1 Timothy 4:1-3), and that until LGBT people are affirmed in church, Jesus can’t return (Luke 24:44 and Isaiah 55:11-56:12). LGBT people play a prophetically vital role in the return of Christ by fulfilling prophecies (Isaiah 56:8) which is necessary in order to fulfill prophecy about the Jews being reinstated into Covenant with God (Romans 11:25).

    Finally, all the clobber passages are set in the context of men who were married to women who engaged in adultery to have relations with men, and have nothing to do with LGBT people. Taken together, these passages are beginning to open the Church’s and LGBT people’s eyes to see us as God sees us: as prophetically vital to His plan for mankind, and equally endowed with the same sacraments as heterosexuals…but tailored to fit our birth…for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    • Dear Brian,

      There have been many that have tried to find a way for scripture to mean what we want it to mean (isogesis), and so I hope that you will seriously consider how you may be doing the same, just as I should always be wary of doing myself when reading scripture.

      I would challenge you to find any reputable historian or biblical languages scholar that would somehow interpret a eunuch as LGBT. Many societies (Africa, China) have had eunuchs and they were never assumed to be identified by sexual orientation, but rather a functional lack of sexual desire. Check historians on that (whether western or eastern historians). In other words, don’t so easily jump from “eunuch” to mean LGBT.

      Again, find any biblical Greek scholar to read Paul’s praising the merits of celibacy you refer to in 1 Corinthians to mean anything even remotely to same gender marriage! He even says he’s speaking to The unmarried and widows. In the context of the letter (read before and after), why would he speak of affirming same gender marriage to only the unmarried and widows? Why not the supposedly same gender married that you seem to think exist in his worldview?

      Try hearing the 1 Tim passage as if it were being written to you and your current perspective. As for forbidding marriage, I’m guessing you wouldn’t approve of ANY to marry (children, siblings, parent-child, cow-farmer, etc.) The Bible isn’t all about forbidding (as much as western society thinks it is), but in same cases, forbidding a father from marrying all of his daughters I think is a good thing.

      As for the Luke reference, read the next two verses. Jesus explains that he’s talking about the prophecies of His own death, burial, and resurrection. I’m trying hard to even see what connection this could have with LGBT.

      We can go on, but please, consider the 1 Timothy 4:1-3 passage speaking to you, just even maybe. Romans 1 is especially fitting as well (whole chapter, but especially the last few verses).

      I love my LGBTQ friends dearly. I’ve learned a lot about social suffering and internal struggles while walking through life with them, crying with them, and rejoicing with them. One thing many of my LGBTQ friends have taught me is that LGBTQ is not an identity, just as heteronormativity/heterosexuality isn’t an identity either. As a follower of Christ, a “follower of Christ” is our sole identity that we ever need to feel threatened to lose. And from that, all else will work itself out as we’re sanctified. Just as with you, I also hope to be challenged if I’m ever misinterpreting or even worse, mis-teaching God’s Word. May we ever be a student and never think ourselves a connoisseur of the Word.

      Blessings dear brother,
      Ben Y.

  83. It saddens me to hear people insisting that persons who are born with a homosexual orientation are committing a ‘sin’ when God has created them as who they are. When we condemn persons who are born with this orientation and have no recourse but to be who they are, we are condemning the very Creativity of God Almighty. God is bigger than we are, and we are mere specs in the universe with only a sliver of His Vision.

    • Jeanne,

      I think you misunderstand what many of us think and what many (not saying all) evangelical Christians believe the Bible says on this subject. In other words, it’s impossible to respond to your comment properly because you incorrectly assume what the aforementioned parties say and believe. So until your comment is actually on the same page and your understanding of the writer’s beliefs is correct, your comment doesn’t make any sense. e.g. – It’s like me saying, “It saddens me to hear that you insist the sky is lime green.” On the other hand, if you are truly interested in understanding the author’s position, and are open minded to their worldview as opposed to assuming something things that aren’t true, ask and I’m sure many (including myself) would be glad to share. Blessings to you.

      • “No evidence that people are born gay?” No, Bill. That is emphatically not true. You must have gotten that information from some 50-year-old book off the “religion and sexuality” shelf of your library. Here’s something more recent, from the Royal College of Psychiatrists (2007): “It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.”

      • Ben Y: Great job of totally dismissing what Jeanne had to say! Her point is a sound one. Why are Christians questioning God’s intention in creating species whose sexual orientations are variable? Why should such variation be any more suspect than the variations in eye color, skin pigmention, hair color, personality, handedness, hair coverage, height, etc.? I cannot imagine that God would be very pleased at your questioning his wisdom in creating all this wonderful diversity. Be grateful that we are not all the same, because it would be a dull world indeed if we were.

      • (Apparently, I have to click reply to my own comment to reply to your comment. Strange.)

        thebentangle: Science is a funny thing. Namely, it is unwise to confuse scientists with Science, just as it is unwise to confuse religious with Religion. The mistake is understandable, and commonplace, but a vocational scientist hardly represents “the view of Science.” People with opposing views can site research that states support for their position. Both Bill and yourself can find acredited, educated scientists that have stated what seem opposing views. This has been and will continue to be the history of any field of discovery. Differing views continue to test and examine. We were once taught in public school that Pluto was a planet. Depending on the nutritionist, skim milk could be better for children, or whole milk, or… Grains used to be the foundation of a healthy diet, while today’s wheat is now a contested toxin. Quarks were the smallest particles at some point, but now many believe otherwise. The Big Bang was a beginning, but now many believe it’s only part of a cycle, etc. etc.

        All that to say, if you were open minded enough to understand what many have seen to be a biblical understanding of the heart, then you wouldn’t bother questioning whether people are born gay or not. You would see how many see it as a moot point. I’m not sure how much of this will get through, but I’ll try a short version: Nature, or the natural, isn’t inherently good. How many species in the wild kill their own (many insects, polar bears, etc.) And there are so many in nature that will knowingly kill their own young. Does that mean it’s okay to murder? What about killing and eating an infant? Point being, even if some are born gay, what about so many traits or proclivities we are born with? Even more gene research has been done to show innate leanings towards substance addictions, violent behaviors, and perhaps one day we’ll map the genome to know how everyone is “shaped” when born. But this doesn’t excuse the choices we make. It only gives us more opportunity to be wise about how we make choices and our weaknesses. Now the typical rebuttal is: “but you can’t compare homosexuality with violence! One is good and the other is bad.” And that’s where we come full circle. How are these moral judgements made? Not just the religious, but how does the non-religious judge what’s moral and good, from what’s immoral and bad? The question won’t be answered by any gene research, no matter even if it ends up being accepted by the scientific community that people aren’t born with it. It will be answered by how we got suckered into a worldview or belief system that we’ve unknowingly adopted and affects how we view everything and anything.

        As a side note, from the numerous enough LGBTQ friends and acquaintances I’ve learned from, many feel they were born with certain proclivities, while others feel like they’ve chosen to experiment because they were curious for that period of time in their lives, while others believe they were abused and shaped by someone else. But all have never seen it as a set-in-stone state. Sexuality (from the small sliver of people I’ve personally conversed with) is much more like a spectrum, that one can freely travel along between heterosexual and homosexual (some travel along that spectrum more easily than others, again due to both seemingly nature and seemingly nurture influences).

        Finally, I will again reiterate (hopefully not upon deaf “ears”), that “her point is a sound one” (as you stated) only if you assume what Jeanne (and presumably you) assumes. What the biblical worldview questions, is whether your assumption that God intended homosexuality like he intended variation in handedness, or whether homosexuality is a variation more like degrees of tendency for alcoholism. For a better written reasoning than I can write for why the former isn’t a fair comparison, read the applicable sections of this article:

        Hoping for us to all keep an open and teachable mind,
        Ben Y.

      • Ben, what you’ve said about science is certainly true up to a point. But the existence of opposing views doesn’t invalidate the scientific enterprise, and it doesn’t mean that one of them cannot be given more credence than the other. When 99% of earth scientists agree that anthropogenic global warming is an urgent problem, we should listen to them because they are expressing the consensus view. Of course they could be totally wrong, but a great deal of harm will probably result from giving their opponents’ arguments equal weight.

        Consensus views always trump single studies.

        Consider, also, that not all science is the same. Some scientific theories and laws are extremely well-established, like heliocentrism, evolutionary theory, and the four laws of thermodynamics. Other scientific endeavors, like epidemiology and nutrition research, are riddled with uncertainties. Some sciences work with copious amounts of data (e.g., physics), while others (e.g., anthropology) are by necessity more theoretical.

        All the major health and social welfare associations in this country, as well as the World Health Organization, have issued position papers about homosexuality, and they all agree that it is not a disorder. Furthermore, they all agree on the genetic and epigenetic basis of homosexuality. Their unanimity about these two issues deserves respect until and unless it can be shown to be ill-founded.

        As for my being “open-minded,” I don’t want my mind to open up so much that my brains fall out. I am in fact very open to evidence, and yet you have shown me none to support your claim.

        I never argued that everything natural is good, so I’m not sure who you’re talking to when you write about eating one’s young.

        I believe you have overlooked a critical and decisive difference between homosexuality and the dysfunctional behaviors that you list (alcoholism, murder). That difference is that homosexuality, unlike substance abuse, harms no one, not even the homosexual himself or herself. This is what all those medical associations have been trying to get across to us all these years. Homosexuality is not a disorder.

        You ask how “we got suckered into a [scientific?]worldview.” I’m not so sure we were suckered into it. Just the fact that you are communicating via the Internet implies a certain level of acceptance. And you do rely on medical science, mechanical engineering, etc., every day of your life, don’t you?

        When I referred to “God” in my earlier comment, I was attempting to present an argument that you could relate to. But let me make it clear that I do not believe in God. So I regard homosexuality as part of the natural variation that occurs in organisms. It would be strange indeed if there were no variation in sexual orientation, given that there is so much variation in everything else about humans.

        And, finally, I’d like to leave you with one thought:

        Homosexuality is not a disorder.

      • I think you misunderstand my view of the institution of Science. The existence of opposing views doesn’t invalidate the scientific enterprise, but it can bring reasonable doubt to some or even all views of a specific issue. What often guides any scientific endeavor, is one’s worldview. Understanding why I assume what I assume, what corollaries I presume, and what givens I draw all other conclusions from matters much more to people than many understand. The misunderstanding that so many in our western science institution begin with, is the issue of the heart.

        As an example: not enough research, but enough reports and evidence have warranted a looking into why more joyful people seem to heal faster or at all when compared to distraught patients. Many doctors encourage “religion” or anything that helps stir hope, because in their experience, the more hopeful have a better chance at healing, especially from life-threatening conditions (cancer, trauma, etc.) There is a lot about the mind and the heart that scientists have tried to understand, but have so far either failed, or have only confirmed what many “non-scientists” have believed for generations.

        Clear evidence of how scientists change their minds about things happens all the time (which is perfectly understandable and fine). Pluto, skim milk vs. whole milk vs. 2%, triceratops, quarks, Big Bang as the beginning vs. a cycle, quantum physics, string theory: these and many others are more examples of not single studies, but consensus for years or decades that has eventually been turned over. In other words, no one is talking about single studies.

        I’ve said this somewhere here before (perhaps in response to someone else), it is dangerous to confuse Science with scientists, as it is to confuse Religion with the religious. The first of each pair is objective, the other is human. As subjective and limited beings, we can only pursue the former endeavors, but never define them.

        More evidence of how western science is still lacking, is when considering cross cultural studies, and longitudinal studies across generations and times. Despite many similarities, there are too many variations between cultures when it comes to morality, how to raise your kids, what’s polite, what’s rude, what’s a proper understanding of family, community vs. individualism, even western vs. eastern medicine.

        As for the often used standard of morality, “it’s okay if it doesn’t hurt anybody”. I would hope by now people can see evidence even in their own lives of how mistaken we humans can be about what hurts people or not: daddy issues, individualism, consumerism, political-correctness, etc. And again, taking into account cultural differences, what hurts some people, doesn’t hurt others. A moving target is not a standard. Who am I to tell someone they shouldn’t be hurt, if… well, they’re hurt? Just because I’m not hurt and don’t think they should be hurt, alone doesn’t mean they won’t be hurt. If I steal $100,000 from a billionaire, and he doesn’t even notice or mind, then does that make it right? I would say, “no”. And especially if I accomplish such a theft without them even knowing (“what they don’t know doesn’t hurt them”), I would say that tired standard of morality, “it’s okay if it doesn’t hurt anybody”, falls short of being useful, let alone definitive.

        Again, this is not a rejection of science, or the internet, or anything. Pitting Religion and Science against each other is another misleading fallacy. They have never opposed each other. Scientists and religious have, but never the objective truth. This brings us back to that foundational worldview that determines so much. I wasn’t assuming you believed in any god, let alone the God of the Bible. But one’s fundamental belief determines so much of what one concludes. I’m not saying the Christian isn’t biased, but rather that we are all biased by our worldview, whether that includes gods or not. It has been said, “as humans, we all worship something”. Whether that’s the self, the biblical God, or something else, whatever our heart is bent towards, determines everything else.

        And this brings us to your last “one thought” and the Bible’s response. The Bible makes it clear: we all have a disorder. It’s in our fallen nature. It’s nothing rooted in sexuality, but it’s an issue of the heart. And so it’s way too narrow a view to think “Homosexuality is not a disorder.” I don’t agree or disagree with that statement per se, because we need to think bigger:

        We all are disordered. Our nature has sin, and that’s why we need a saviour.

      • 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

        21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

        24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

        26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

        28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

    • Jean,

      There is essentially no evidence that people are born gay. All the evidence seems to point to the fact that it is a culturally conditioned behavior. The gay lobby states otherwise with nothing to support the contention.


      • “No evidence that people are born gay?” No, Bill. That is emphatically not true. You must have gotten that information from some 50-year-old book off the “religion and sexuality” shelf of your library. Here’s something more recent, from the Royal College of Psychiatrists (2007): “It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.”

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  85. Reblogged this on life of a female bible warrior and commented:
    I reblog this “message” because I feel that its point is very well made and clarifies for me how I should deal with the glbt “issue” as a Christian in 2013, which can be challenging, to say the least. I prefer to struggle with the beam within my own eye, instead of picking at the one within my sister’s. Thank you, Hunter Baker, for this “astonishing message from a gay sister in Christ.” Very well said indeed! I just had to share it.

    • Nonurbiz,

      I highly recommend that you pick at that beam within your own eyes, and ignore the splinter within the eyes of your brother and sister — you have enough to deal with on your own plate, bud. Truly. May God bring you the wisdom to know the difference…

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